Only in Canada

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Only in Canada

Postby Bev » June 20th, 2012, 12:57 am

Pondero wrote:
Bev wrote:I just want to add, I've not heard of a Catholic school in America who has been "forced" by the government to teach homosexuality as a norm in their schools. This does illuminate the wisdom of the American founding fathers in constructing the original Constitution to protect both civil and religious rights.

The problem most "religious" groups in America have is that this Constitution does not give the religious citizens more power over the secular citizens (who are trending more towards a majority.)

But you still have problems about Obama care and his proposed law which Catholic bishops refuse to obey.
What happened to that proposed law about payment for contraception anyway. I haven't heard anything about it for months?


To be honest, I'd have to look into it more in-depth, but the last I heard on it, the "private" schools receive too much public tax-funded support to be considered completely private, religious institutions. I suspect it also has something to do with the insurance companies they choose to go with. You aren't mandated by the government to choose any particular insurance coverage, but you do have to give the insurance company you choose the right to call all the shots. That may not be an entirely government thing. It could be the private insurance company just using the government as a scapegoat. But, I admit, I have not fully looked into it. I'm only going on what I've experienced personally by insurance companies who seem more powerful than government----and they are private!
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 20th, 2012, 10:26 am

Two Catholic universities, one at Steubenville, and another called Ave Maria, have canceled their student health care insurance, rather than obey Obama's unjust law which was to come into effect in July 2012.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Bev » June 20th, 2012, 4:07 pm

Pondero wrote:Two Catholic universities, one at Steubenville, and another called Ave Maria, have canceled their student health care insurance, rather than obey Obama's unjust law which was to come into effect in July 2012.


The 1st Amendment protects their right to do this. That's the true nature of the 1st Amendment.

In the most recent statement from the White House, it sounds like Obama is imposing this requirement on insurance companies, not on religious institutions. I agree the wording does not allow religious institutions to control whether an abortion is covered, but they are not required to provide for the coverage in any way. This may end up in the Federal Supreme Court, but my guess would be an interpretation of the 1st Amendment would require the Supreme Court to uphold Obama's decision--especially given that insurance companies cannot be ruled as "religious" organizations.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Until abortion becomes a federal offense, punishable like any other crime, the Federal Supreme Court will consider it legal and a civil right.
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 20th, 2012, 4:17 pm

Well,thank God the Catholic Church is not a democracy Victoria.Nothing in those websites surprises me at all.We who are left would rather lose them as Catholics than agree with them.

Anyhow, Bev, I was referring to the law mandating contraceptives being supplied by the two universities in question, not abortion although both are contrary to Catholic doctrine.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Sprocket » June 20th, 2012, 5:17 pm

Pondero wrote:Bev wrote in reply:
Have I been doing that?.
Not really, Pondero. But when you equate a democratic commonwealth of people to Christianity as if civil laws and Christianity are one thing, it reminds me of similar arguments here in the US. I probably should have said "government" instead of democracy--but a democratic government is one form that at least pretends to listen to a majority.


As Catholic Christians we believe in certain things and would like to have a majority of Catholics agree on something Catholic and get the politicians to legislate whatever it is that we believe. That would be democratic, and then legal. For example, the abolition of the freedom to have an abortion ,as abortion is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

Nobody's forcing Catholic women to have abortions, and you have the right to use peaceful persuasion, within reasonable limits, to persuade others not to have them. That's democracy. It would be outrageously undemocratic to ban abortions for all just because some disagree with them, even if the some were a majority, which they aren't. I don't approve of casual sex and adultery, but I don't want to see them made criminal offences, as that would be an interference in the personal liberties of others.
Supercrappyfarcicalishbrexitisatrocious.
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 20th, 2012, 5:41 pm

You obviously think Sprocket that a woman has a right to have an abortion if she wants one, and I don't.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Lyn » June 20th, 2012, 5:48 pm

Sprocket said: "Nobody's forcing Catholic women to have abortions, and you have the right to use peaceful persuasion, within reasonable limits, to persuade others not to have them." His personal opinion on the subject is not relevant.

You live in a democratic country Pondy and are allowed to use the peaceful persuasion that Sprockets has described.
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Bev » June 20th, 2012, 7:57 pm

Pondero wrote: I was referring to the law mandating contraceptives being supplied by the two universities in question, not abortion although both are contrary to Catholic doctrine.


If you read the text of the link I provided, you'll see that the religious universities themselves are not being mandated. The insurance companies are. The religious institution is not even required to cover the copay, as secular institutions are.

Regardless of our moral stance, the law supports all woman in the right to make these choices for themselves. Everyone else can only try gentle persuasion to encourage a woman to choose differently.
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Re: Only in Canada

Postby Bev » June 20th, 2012, 8:06 pm

Pondero wrote:As Catholic Christians we believe in certain things and would like to have a majority of Catholics agree on something Catholic and get the politicians to legislate whatever it is that we believe.


How would such legislation work? Are you saying you want the Canadian government to legislate over the Catholic Church--so that in addition to risking Hell, one would also be risking legal action? Or are you saying the Catholic Church wants the government to legislate Catholic belief-systems on non Catholic citizens?
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