The Israel-Palestine Thread

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The Israel-Palestine Thread

Postby Val » August 11th, 2014, 7:37 pm

I haven’t been on here for a while mostly because of work but partially because it had become taboo to raise certain topics mainly Israel and Palestine or particularly the conditions of the Palestinians at the hands of Israeli authorities a supposedly western type democracy.

Now first of all I am not anti Jewish or pro Islam, all Israelis are not Nasty Bad People and all Palestinians are not Hamas Terrorists.

But, and it is a big BUT the problem in Palestine will not go away by ignoring it and if we cannot discuss our differing viewpoints on the matter like civilised adults then we have more serious problems as individuals than many of us think.

We all know how Israel got started and the Jewish cause that led to the unfair partition of Palestine in 1948 but if you look at a modern map of Palestine it has all but vanished somehow without the west batting an eyelid, Israel has grown almost overnight so that the once recognised borders no longer exist, the Palestinian population are forever being crushed in this land grab, whole towns/villages/farms and communities are being wiped out by Israeli bulldozers to make way for 4 lane highways that link Israeli settlements with the larger towns and cities these apartheid roadways are for Israeli people only, Palestinians cannot use them even though their lands were taken to build them.
If that wasn't enough then you have the monstrosity of a wall that cuts deep into and divides communities even family farms held for generations fall to its shadow.

The West Bank is still being settled by Jewish migrants who get paid by Israeli authorities 20,000 US dollars to move and live in these illegal enclaves.
Palestinian roadways in the west bank have IDF roadblocks every few kilometres creating long queues making motorised travel in any meaningful way impossible and many of these close at night time so that between 7:00pm and 7:00am no travel is allowed, this causes great hardship to the rural peoples as their children cannot attend schools and colleges and men cannot keep regular jobs because of the travel restrictions.

Hamas or other terrorist organisation do not live in these rural towns there are no rockets or bombs here just a hardworking people trying to get on with their daily lives.

The US funds this state to the tune of around 12 million dollars a day 365 days a year and this is how the average American tax dollar is being spent.

So Thaddeans, do you think this is all fair and that Israel are doing no wrong?
Last edited by Val on August 12th, 2014, 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Once upon a time

Postby GregB » August 11th, 2014, 8:09 pm

It's still taboo.
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Re: Once upon a time

Postby Val » August 12th, 2014, 9:45 am

GregB wrote:It's still taboo.


Greg, I do not think that our debating of the Israel/Palestine issue should be off limits, as long as it stays polite.
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Re: Once upon a time

Postby Sprocket » August 12th, 2014, 10:10 am

I suggest that, if people absolutely cannot resist commenting on Israel-Palestine, they do so on this thread only - and I suggest changing its title, to make it clearer that it is about Israel-Palestine. "The Israel-Palestine Thread" would seem an obvious choice.
Ah - I see the title has been changed. Thanks. I still think, with Greg, that the subject is best avoided altogether, though. We sll know where each other stands, and we've all heard each other's arguments. That's not an absolute promise on my part never to comment, but I'm stasying schtum for now, after this post.
Well, after this, anyway: Val wrote
the problem in Palestine will not go away by ignoring it
True, but it won't go away by discussing it, either. Our discussions on this forum have no influence on the wider world whatsoever.
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Re: Once upon a time

Postby GregB » August 12th, 2014, 10:21 am

Sprocket wrote:I suggest that, if people absolutely cannot resist commenting on Israel-Palestine, they do so on this thread only - and I suggest changing its title, to make it clearer that it is about Israel-Palestine. "The Israel-Palestine Thread" would seem an obvious choice.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Val talked about any discussion remaining polite. I do hope so, too - at least I'm sure we won't descend to the level of some of the comments I've read on the Yahoo page following articles about the current crisis. It's frightening to think that some of those people are loose out there, on either side of the issue.
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Re: The Israel-Palestine Thread

Postby Pondero » August 12th, 2014, 10:25 am

Yes, a good idea Sprocket. First of all apart from me and Greg, who else has traveled to Israel and the West Bank, (both parts) the part bordering the Dead Sea and the Jordan area or just the town of Bethlehem? And who has traveled to the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan itself from the north to Petra in the south?

All this helps, but is not essential. The blocks on roads I found in the West Bank were manned by Hezbolah, and guns were pointed at us and our passports taken away from us for examination. Some Israeli soldiers in a market place with camels for tourists to ride, we're mingling freely, with everybody. The shopkeepers spoke English because I argued with one of them who was trying to charge me too much for some small item. I didn't buy and he talked to his neighbour about it.
In Bethlehem you see the wall constructed by the Israel army. The check points are for security reasons. A picture, as large as life of Yasa Ararat, the late Palestinan leader is in a business shelter thing at the border. Mosques ring our their musical chants at intervals while you wait to enter the Church of the Nativity, guarded by Blue uniformed police who were quite casual - after all why kill the goose that brings in tourist dollars!
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Re: Once upon a time

Postby Val » August 12th, 2014, 10:36 am

GregB wrote:
Sprocket wrote:I suggest that, if people absolutely cannot resist commenting on Israel-Palestine, they do so on this thread only - and I suggest changing its title, to make it clearer that it is about Israel-Palestine. "The Israel-Palestine Thread" would seem an obvious choice.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Val talked about any discussion remaining polite. I do hope so, too - at least I'm sure we won't descend to the level of some of the comments I've read on the Yahoo page following articles about the current crisis. It's frightening to think that some of those people are loose out there, on either side of the issue.


I think we know each other well enough by now and hopefully have a respect for our different views.
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Re: The Israel-Palestine Thread

Postby Val » August 12th, 2014, 10:43 am

Now if I post some information that someone else finds in error or just plain wrong then I hope they will counter it with evidence and not just rhetoric, and although we are only a small group hopefully through discussions we can get a better understanding of why we have taken sides, there is a lot of evidence out there in news reports and newspapers so what are some of us missing?
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Re: The Israel-Palestine Thread

Postby GregB » August 12th, 2014, 10:53 am

Val wrote:Now if I post some information that someone else finds in error or just plain wrong then I hope they will counter it with evidence and not just rhetoric

It's not just a question of rhetoric, Val. Let me repeat what I posted a few minutes ago on the adjacent thread:

The problem with going over the errors in your post, Val, is that someone else who may have read conflicting material about, say, the events of 1948, will come along and dispute the corrected version, which in turn will give rise to a counter-refutation...and so on, not really getting anywhere. OK, if it's not handled in a heated or aggressive manner, that's fine, but I just don't see what purpose it serves at the end of the day.


And if you're going to post stuff about the current situation, then the waters start to deepen. Look, here's the bottom line; as Steve said very wisely, nothing of what we say here is going to alter the situation one jot.
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Re: The Israel-Palestine Thread

Postby Val » August 12th, 2014, 11:01 am

GregB wrote:
Val wrote:Now if I post some information that someone else finds in error or just plain wrong then I hope they will counter it with evidence and not just rhetoric

It's not just a question of rhetoric, Val. Let me repeat what I posted a few minutes ago on the adjacent thread:

The problem with going over the errors in your post, Val, is that someone else who may have read conflicting material about, say, the events of 1948, will come along and dispute the corrected version, which in turn will give rise to a counter-refutation...and so on, not really getting anywhere. OK, if it's not handled in a heated or aggressive manner, that's fine, but I just don't see what purpose it serves at the end of the day.


And if you're going to post stuff about the current situation, then the waters start to deepen. Look, here's the bottom line; as Steve said very wisely, nothing of what we say here is going to alter the situation one jot.


That can be said about every subject, so let us just pick one point in that opening post and see where the error lies
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