Jihad on our doorstep II

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Val » November 11th, 2014, 12:59 pm

I didn't want to take part in this Jihad on our doorstep II or whatever new version of it may arise, but enough is enough.

First of all let me state quite categorically that I do not like Islam as a religion but then I don't like any organisation that excludes females from the ruling body and that goes for my own mother church Catholicism and for all so called modern day sects or religions like Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons etc. its only fairly recently that Mormonism accepted black people as being part of the human family
But this onslaught against Muslims is unfair and racialist, I have worked with and am still very friendly with many Muslims and I have found all but 1 to be honest hardworking individuals, who like the rest of us just want to get on with life and enjoy their families and friends.
Sure there are radicals and extremists but you don’t have to look at Islam for that it is all about you there is always someone looking for easy prey and are willing to take ‘by force if necessary’ something that they have no rights to. ‘we can discuss Israel if anyone likes’

I mention this again because it was during our lifetime in what has become known as the ‘Troubles’ that great rift between Catholic and Protestants in Northern Ireland that caused so much suffering with people on all sides being radicalised and willing to die for their beliefs, have any of you Thaddeans really read up on what exactly caused this rift, I mean really?

ISIS or whatever the scumbags call themselves now are just terrorists plain and simple they do happen to be Muslim but could easily be Catholic or Protestant or some other religion. And just like Rape has nothing to with sexual relations what ISIS are doing has nothing to do with religion but with power and greed and for the same reasons, to cause as much fear as possible and to subjugate a people or a nation so that it can easily be controlled, you pick bits of the Quran to truly and show how violent Islam really is but as Bev keeps saying they are out of context for none of us here are scholars of Arabic or whatever the original language was, we do not know enough about Islam to be so critical of its meaning to the people who do understand the language and its history.
Just take one text out of context in the Christian Bible, Luke 14:26 surely this demands every Christian to hate his father and brother in order to follow Jesus.

Remember instead that every minute 4 children die from easily preventable causes, they die from hunger and a lack of clean drinking water, and 5,760 children die every 24 hours while caring Christians argue about issues that they do not understand and cannot change.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby GregB » November 11th, 2014, 1:01 pm

Stephen Harper is an exemplary Western leader who recognises the dangers of the renewed peril to our societies of Islamist supremacism and will not cower in the way of nauseating appeasement policies of idiots* like your Trudeau, America's laughable Islam-friendly burnt-out dork Hussein Obama and even sickening fence-sitters like David Cameron.

The fact is that we're at war against an ideology which threatens our civilisation and whole way of life, deceived liberal apologists and dupes in our midst notwithstanding. Perhaps the regime in Iran which executes homosexuals has got the Koran wrong. Perhaps the Saudi Arabian theocracy which beheads thieves, or at best cuts off their hands, and relegates women to second class citizenship (as in all Muslim lands) has also got their 'bible' wrong. Perhaps those killings of Christians in Pakistan, Somalia and elsewhere accused of blasphemy are the victims of a wrong reading of the Koran. Perhaps the growing number of 'honour killings' of young women, even by members of their own families, for simply having a relationship with a non-Muslim - and, if they're 'lucky', only (sic) having acid thrown in their beautiful young faces, disfiguring them for life - is an aberration from that (repugnant) repressive religion. And so on through the whole tragically sorry story of the application of the pseudo-religion of Islam, a pathetic mish-mash of badly understood Judaism and Christianity cobbled together by a psychotic, pedarest - wife Aisha at 9 years old - warlord seeking religious underpinnings for his warlike expansion like any other tribal chieftain in search of power, but with the street smart that you need a convenient ideology to justify your expansionist ambitions, and the ridiculously creaking Koran with its banal unimaginative pastiche of authentic Judeo/Christian teachings was the product of that self-serving objective (just as the Book of Mormon was the fraudulent product of another posturing, mentally-unbalanced pseudo-prophet, Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saints 'religion', another psychotic individual like Muhammed with delusions of grandeur and author of an equally laughable divine revelation.)

[* That consummate hard-headed cynical realist, Lenin, called those comfortable, gullible Western dupes in their cosseted incomprehension of the reality of the revolution 'useful idiots'.]

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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Val » November 11th, 2014, 3:59 pm

I may have to retract some of my earlier posting, I had been busy for the last few weeks and hadn't time to fully research the rising problem with radical Islam but I have been in a school over the last few days and talking with a teacher friend about this very problem and he has been watching and studying with interest over the last few years the change of Islam in its attitude toward the west and especially Christians and people of other faiths, I will talk more with him get the relevant information and report here, but for now I must say that I am shocked by what he has quietly shown me in the space of a few hours.
And if it is correct as ‘Greg has been trying to say for ages now’ then I do think we should stand up for our hard fought for western principles be they religious or cultural while we have some left.
Last edited by Val on November 11th, 2014, 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
John Stuart Mill

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 11th, 2014, 4:28 pm

3- Book of Muhammad, verse 4 (47:4) - “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”


4- Book of Al-Tawba, verse 123 (9:123) - “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

 5- Book of Al-Baqara, verse 191 (2:191) - “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

 6- Book of Al-Baqara, verse 193 (2:193) - “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

 7- Book of Al-Tawba verse 29 (9:29) - "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Jizyah tax) by hand, being inferior.”

 8- Book of Al-Anfal, verse 17 (8:17) - It is not ye who Slew them, but Allah; And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower. Allah is indeed the "Beneficent and the Merciful" and above all, Allah is knower of all things.

The above quotes show that Islam is not a religion of peace, but one of barbarism.
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » November 11th, 2014, 5:43 pm

Val wrote:I may have to retract some of my earlier posting, I had been busy for the last few weeks and hadn't time to fully research the rising problem with radical Islam but I have been in a school over the last few days and talking with a teacher friend about this very problem and he has been watching and studying with interest over the last few years the change of Islam in its attitude toward the west and especially Christians and people of other faiths, I will talk more with him get the relevant information and report here, but for now I must say that I am shocked by what he has quietly shown me in the space of a few hours.

And if it is correct as ‘Greg has been trying to say for ages now’ then I do think we should stand up for our hard fought for western principals be they religious or cultural while we have some left.

Thanks for your honesty here Val. One reason why I have supported strongly what Greg has been saying all along is because I live in an area where there are lots of Muslims. I get to see how, bit by bit they are getting more and more of what they want. It may seem like making a mountain out of a molehill when there is talk about halal meat being the default (instead of an opt-in), or why Malala Yousafzai opened Birmingham's new Central Library (instead of a recognised born-and-bred Brummie like the historian Carl Chinn, or the comedians Jasper Carrot or Lenny Henry). Sometimes when I listen to phone-ins, some young people are ringing in and talking about Muslim areas, not areas where a lot of Muslims live, e.g. last year when there was an incident with two charity workers walking through Sparkbrook in mankinis. There are Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists and other ethnic groups living in Sparkbrook so it is most definitely not a Muslim area. I could tell you about the junior school up the road from where I live that no longer allows Christian workers in to do assemblies because (according to some) the Somalian parents complained and the head backed down. I could tell you about how more and more schools are using halal meat as the default (do Sikhs and Hindus want to eat halal meat?) and how in one school a dinner lady was fired for serving the wrong kind of meat! (1) I could tell you about the local BBC FM Gospel show that used to be on a Sunday evening (listened to by thousands unable to get to church on a Sunday evening), moved to a Monday evening to make way for an Asian show (mind you, the head of BBC Religious Broadcasting is a Muslim!!)

If you have a look at what Greg wrote earlier: only yesterday I read an article on a Christian website about safe-houses being set up in Bradford to provide refuge for Muslims who have converted from Islam to Christianity. The way some of them are treated is nothing short of horrific. If you consider this

Greg wrote:The fact is that we're at war against an ideology which threatens our civilisation and whole way of life.

Leaders, who want to appear tolerant are not saying/doing what needs to be done! So the rapid rise of Islam is occurring by using the liberal values of the west against itself! Leaders need to be bold in such a time as this and unfortunately Obama and Cameron are not up to the job.

(1) Dinner lady sacked for serving Muslim children with non-halal meat at multi-faith school
Last edited by SwordOfTheSpirit on November 11th, 2014, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » November 11th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Pondero wrote:The above quotes show that Islam is not a religion of peace, but one of barbarism.

As you, Greg and Theophilus have demonstrated numerous times now: Christianity is a religion of peace and it is an abuse/misuse that has seen bad practice in the past (or currently). In contrast, Islam spread through subjugation/submission, using violence when necessary.

For example: It's amazing to see e.g. in Pakistan, all that is needed is for one accusation of blasphemy against a Christian. Any due process, let's hear the other side? No! The mob comes out, kills a few Christians or drive them out of their households, burns down any churches. In contrast, how would Christians behave if there was ever to be a case of a Muslim blaspheming God Almighty?
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Theophilus » November 11th, 2014, 8:20 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:For example: It's amazing to see e.g. in Pakistan, all that is needed is for one accusation of blasphemy against a Christian. Any due process, let's hear the other side? No!


And unfortunately this is not new. Certainly under the Ottoman Empire, and I believe under the earliest Caliphates in North Africa and the Levante, the testimony of a Christian could never trump that of a Muslim. For all the talk of religious tolerance, Christians were still legally treated as second-class citizens for the crime of not being a Muslim, and being a second-class citizen wasn't merely a case of having to pay an extra tax:

Any due process, let's hear the other side? No! The mob comes out, kills a few Christians or drive them out of their households, burns down any churches.


Yep, this is what happened then as well. Talk of it being a transgression of true Islam is neither here nor there when at no point in history has true Islam ever manifested itself in practice. Either it isn't really true Islam, or Islam is fundamentally flawed and can do nothing to reign in the worse excesses of violence, bigotry or intolerance.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 11th, 2014, 8:39 pm

I don't usually answer Val's posts because I am so much at odds with him it is not worthwhile. But, this one comment I am going to answer.

And if it is correct as ‘Greg has been trying to say for ages now’ then I do think we should stand up for our hard fought for western principles be they religious or cultural while we have some left.


What are our hard fought for western principles, as seen by the average man? The answer is he doesn't have any.
According to communications guru, Australian Matthew Kelly, the three dominating philosophies are individualism(what is in it for me), hedonism ( freedom and pleasure as the supreme good), and minimalism (what is the least I can do).pursuit of happiness is the chief motivating force of our society ...we confuse pleasure with happiness.
Catholicism in my case.,Genuine Christianity for others, has gone,in my view, by the wayside. Mr.Average man doesn't know it.
According to Kelly, (and he is not a deep thinker, compared to Chesterton) many don't understand the paradox of Jesus that only through denial and sacrifice can we be truly happy. Kelly is correct here in his views.

Now, the above writing is relevant to the topic of Jihad because,with no belief system to tell him he should be resisting, or at least trying to understand the Muslim encroachment on his way of life, Mr. Average man is going to wake up too late and find his freedoms destroyed by Islamic sharia law in Muslim zones of the country.
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Theophilus » November 11th, 2014, 8:46 pm

Pondero wrote:Now, the above writing is relevant to the topic of Jihad because,with no belief system to tell him he should be resisting, or at least trying to understand the Muslim encroachment on his way of life...


The "belief system" (i.e. Christianity) is also needed as an alternative to Muslims too. Muslims that are easily radicalized are not going to be persuaded by consumerism (and I don't blame them!), but they may be persuaded to put their misplaced zeal into a faith based on humility and asceticism rather than violence and outrage.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Lyn » November 11th, 2014, 9:05 pm

Val wrote:I may have to retract some of my earlier posting, I had been busy for the last few weeks and hadn't time to fully research the rising problem with radical Islam but I have been in a school over the last few days and talking with a teacher friend about this very problem and he has been watching and studying with interest over the last few years the change of Islam in its attitude toward the west and especially Christians and people of other faiths, I will talk more with him get the relevant information and report here, but for now I must say that I am shocked by what he has quietly shown me in the space of a few hours.
And if it is correct as ‘Greg has been trying to say for ages now’ then I do think we should stand up for our hard fought for western principles be they religious or cultural while we have some left.


Very interesting Val. I know your teacher friend was not talking about Islamic schools per se but, out of interest, we have an Islamic school down the road from us, been there for years. It's set well back from the road in beautiful surroundings. This is it: http://www.darululoomlondon.co.uk/

Here is a link to a Daily Mail article about the school, written a few years ago. Of course we take the Mail writings with a pinch of salt and they are quite inaccurate about the 20 hour days, getting up at 3.45am (though the older boys might do so during Ramadam I suppose). Whenever we see the boys shopping in the high street they look well rested and relaxed which they certainly would not if they had insufficient sleep. We all know teenagers can sleep for England. It is, however, still quite an interesting article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ders-.html

I just posted this because I thought some might find the school interesting, I did and do. It's very cheap too! I think it is the Mail that contrasts the fees to the Farringdons school opposite (which locals call "St Trinians").
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