Jihad on our doorstep II

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 11th, 2014, 9:06 pm

Good point Theo, true enough. But, first we must make genuine Christianity known, and although being Roman Catholic, I think that is the right one, I know that if the Orthodox Church doctrine was taught - one or the other - with missionary zeal,the problem would disappear.
We could start with the Lord's prayer in school, and scripture reading in assembly, before class.
Get rid of the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada, on many religious questions which they have ruled on.This can be done by the government invoking the notwithstanding clause of our Constitution . Something that has never been done - but it is there for a purpose. The purpose being that an elected Parliament really rules Canada, not nine unelected Supreme Court judges, with no religious background.
The main point I am making is that we need to stand up for Christianity and make it attractive to would be jihadists.
England is lucky it has no written constitution .
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Val » November 12th, 2014, 9:07 am

Forcing religion on someone never really works if it did then ‘catholic Ireland’ would be a prime example of a true religious society, but clearly that is not the case.

As we have all learned power corrupts and absolute religious power corrupts absolutely, great religious leaders are “almost always bad men” ‘the religious bit is my input’
But it was proven without a shadow of doubt here in the auld sod once we got enough courage to speak out and ask questions of those who claimed to be men of truth and those who preached the truth as they interpreted it.

The catholic church in Ireland will never recover ‘thankfully’, IMMHO religion must be a choice, you cannot force children to follow your religious beliefs just because you think it is the right way, everyone must be allowed to find the path that is right for them.

Religious schools or madrassas will radicalise students no matter what religion is being forced on them and the sooner they are all closed down the better, monitoring these hives is impossible.

The Francis Xavier attributed dictum/adage “Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man
” is wrong on so many grounds as was again proven here in Ireland where boys were radicalised into sexual deviation by these masters who had full access to them in institutions and seminaries.

You cannot subjugate the human spirit with forced beliefs, it will out eventually.
Ever since man invented religion it has caused serious problems, from ancient crude religious cultures appeasing god/or gods with human sacrifice, to what we have today, an evolved mix of pseudo religious claptrap* (in the most part*) there are some genuine religious factions (from all mainstream religions) who actually believe what they preach and do no harm to anyone.
But overall religion has been a great human failure and the cost in lives and resources is truly sickening, so I raise a glass to future enlightened times without all this religious baggage
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Lyn » November 12th, 2014, 11:06 am

I have a lot of sympathy for Val's position on the Church in Ireland, having been to Catholic schools and knowing so many Irish Catholics. It will take another generation or so to eradicate the harm the Church did but it is an example to others that giving a religious body so much power over the everyday lives of people is extremely harmful.

Consequently, faith schools of any description in this country do not have my support but we cannot stop people setting them up privately. There are quite a lot of different faith schools over here, a lot of folks don't realise that.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 12th, 2014, 12:02 pm

What Val calls forcing religion down childrens throats means in practice teaching the Catholic religion in Ireland. It is and has been a good thing for Ireland and the world that this was done.I remember Irish priests over here who lived exemplary lives,
I have experienced how Catholic Schools are run here in Toronto, and it is an uplifting experience to see joyful faces and dedicated teachers in the classroom. I didn't experience the same joy when I taught for two years in a public school in Toronto.
The educational standards of excellence in math and the hard subjects I know exist in our Catholic High schools. The discipline is of a high standard too.
It is a tenet of my belief that the parents have the right to determine the education of their children
A right which overrules the rights of the State in this matter (Rerum Novarum and other papal envyclicals). The famiy has rights which supercede those of the State in child rearing matters - this too is bed-rock, fundamental Catholicism.

If you don't teach your children what you believe in then society will do it by osmosis. You don't want this to happen to your children. You will be answerable to God for your actions if you do.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Val » November 12th, 2014, 12:17 pm

Pondero wrote:I don't usually answer Val's posts because I am so much at odds with him it is not worthwhile. But, this one comment I am going to answer.

And if it is correct as ‘Greg has been trying to say for ages now’ then I do think we should stand up for our hard fought for western principles be they religious or cultural while we have some left.


What are our hard fought for western principles, as seen by the average man? The answer is he doesn't have any.
According to communications guru, Australian Matthew Kelly, the three dominating philosophies are individualism(what is in it for me), hedonism ( freedom and pleasure as the supreme good), and minimalism (what is the least I can do).pursuit of happiness is the chief motivating force of our society ...we confuse pleasure with happiness.
Catholicism in my case.,Genuine Christianity for others, has gone,in my view, by the wayside. Mr.Average man doesn't know it.
According to Kelly, (and he is not a deep thinker, compared to Chesterton) many don't understand the paradox of Jesus that only through denial and sacrifice can we be truly happy. Kelly is correct here in his views.

Now, the above writing is relevant to the topic of Jihad because,with no belief system to tell him he should be resisting, or at least trying to understand the Muslim encroachment on his way of life, Mr. Average man is going to wake up too late and find his freedoms destroyed by Islamic sharia law in Muslim zones of the country.


Of course we have principles and good ones without religious beliefs. Bad people are bad people regardless of what they believe in, fundamentalist Islamic or other religious fanatics are terrorist’s first plain and simple, but put these scumbags in religious madrassas where they are promised something wonderful if they kill and are killed in the name of their god, if they believe the promise that they will be resurrected to a wonderful life if they do this bidding then you have an merciless killing machine just carrying out his creators wishes, crusaders were promised full remission of sins old and new if they killed in the name of their god and they did it with a willing heart, their prayers drowned out the screams of the men women and children they slaughtered.

Non believers or Atheists have no such promises no such rewards and when they kill it has some purpose in this existence, they might be protecting a loved one, or the scumbag atheists might want to take your house or land or car or wife but that is it, they usually find it is better to live in peace with their neighbours because this is all there is.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 12th, 2014, 1:19 pm

Of course we have principles and good ones without religious beliefs. Bad people are bad people regardless of what they believe in,...

What you ignore, is that your good principles are all based on Judeo/ Christian precepts.

fundamentalist Islamic or other religious fanatics are terrorist’s first plain and simple, but put these scumbags in religious madrassas where they are promised something wonderful if they kill and are killed in the name of their god, if they believe the promise that they will be resurrected to a wonderful life if they do this bidding then you have an merciless killing machine just carrying out his creators wishes..


Allah's wishes in their case. Islam as has been shown is a pseudo-political entity, made up by man, for giving excuses to rob and enslave your neighbour.


....
crusaders were promised full remission of sins old and new if they killed in the name of their god and they did it with a willing heart, their prayers drowned out the screams of the men women and children they slaughtered.
.


That is not true,Val. Crusaders were given a plenary indulgence, if in a state of grace, for volunteering to take part in the first Crusade. (the only Crusade discussed so far). The objective of the first Crusade was to take back Jerusalem, safeguard the holy places, occupied by force 400 years earlier by Islam.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Bev » November 12th, 2014, 2:18 pm

This thread was a good idea, I think.

GregB wrote:Stephen Harper is an exemplary Western leader who recognises the dangers of the renewed peril to our societies of Islamist supremacism and will not cower in the way of nauseating appeasement policies of idiots* like your Trudeau, America's laughable Islam-friendly burnt-out dork Hussein Obama and even sickening fence-sitters like David Cameron.


Isn't it possible to battle Islamist supremacism without physically attacking them? One isn't appeasing these radicals if a narrative that undermines their seeming power becomes popular with the greater world. I truly believe a psychological battle like this would harm their effort more than anything.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby GregB » November 12th, 2014, 2:55 pm

No. You assume as a reasonable, free, liberal, educated American citizen that we can talk these problems through with people from totally alien, religio-political societies (who hate our civilisation), as if all the world is reasonable when it comes down to it and act like Norman Rockwell-style decent folks, but the wholly different Muslim supremacist mindset just laughs at such signs of Western weakness, and despises it. (The Islamofascist gauleiter/mullahs in Iran are playing on that gullibility right now with the fool in the White House as they develop their nuclear weapons regardless.)

I'm sorry, Bev, but your idea of a 'psychological battle' with these dedicated fanatics is at best badly unrealistic and at worst suicidal. Is that really so difficult to take on board? I don't know about you, but I think my civic freedoms are worth defending, in battle if necessary, rather than chance it with appeals to reason from indoctrinated fanatics.
"Caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar." ("Traveller, there is no path, you make the path as you walk.")
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Bev » November 12th, 2014, 3:16 pm

GregB wrote:No. You assume as a reasonable, free, liberal, educated American citizen that we can talk these problems through with people from totally alien, religio-political societies (who hate our civilisation), as if all the world is reasonable when it comes down to it and act like Norman Rockwell-style decent folks, but the wholly different Muslim supremacist mindset just laughs at such signs of Western weakness, and despises it. (The Islamofascist gauleiter/mullahs in Iran are playing on that gullibility right now with the fool in the White House as they develop their nuclear weapons regardless.)

I'm sorry, Bev, but your idea of a 'psychological battle' with these dedicated fanatics is at best badly unrealistic and at worst suicidal. Is that really so difficult to take on board? I don't know about you, but I think my civic freedoms are worth defending, in battle if necessary, rather than chance it with appeals to reason from indoctrinated fanatics.


It's really my Christian faith that makes the alternative so difficult for me to support. I just have to believe there must be a smarter, more peaceful way to battle the rising threat.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby GregB » November 12th, 2014, 3:28 pm

I don't let such emotional or subjective considerations get in the way of my objective analysis of the situation, although my own underlying Christian convictions tell me that this awful parody, possibly work of the devil, of true monotheistic religion will one day be evaporated as insubstantial shadowplay on the world stage.
"Caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar." ("Traveller, there is no path, you make the path as you walk.")
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