Jihad on our doorstep II

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Theophilus » November 12th, 2014, 3:34 pm

Bev wrote:It's really my Christian faith that makes the alternative so difficult for me to support.


It is mainly your politics, Bev; it's certainly your politics that see war as the only alternative to appeasement.

Islam (or "radical Islam" if you prefer) is the poison, and destroying those who have taken the poison is not the only method. We have to look at how the poison is allowed to enter Muslims living in Western countries, and how terrorists are made from people who are 2nd, 3rd etc. generation immigrants. I have mentioned in lots of posts how this poison is allowed to enter, and legislation can keep out a great deal of it.

But more importantly, the secularisation of Western countries need to be halted. Because what is clear is that secularisation doesn't merely separate church and state, but also marginalizes the cultural religion of a country (in this case Christianity) whilst allowing "non-native" faiths to flourish in ghettos. If there was a way of life that wasn't simply crass consumerism, hedonism and individualism then it would offer an actual alternative to Islam. And of course there is: it is Christianity.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Theophilus » November 12th, 2014, 3:45 pm

Pondero wrote:Good point Theo, true enough. But, first we must make genuine Christianity known, and although being Roman Catholic, I think that is the right one, I know that if the Orthodox Church doctrine was taught - one or the other - with missionary zeal,the problem would disappear.
We could start with the Lord's prayer in school, and scripture reading in assembly, before class.
Get rid of the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada, on many religious questions which they have ruled on.This can be done by the government invoking the notwithstanding clause of our Constitution . Something that has never been done - but it is there for a purpose. The purpose being that an elected Parliament really rules Canada, not nine unelected Supreme Court judges, with no religious background.
The main point I am making is that we need to stand up for Christianity and make it attractive to would be jihadists.
England is lucky it has no written constitution .


I agree with most of this but would disagree slightly with the use of the "Our Father" in school assemblies. The Lord's Prayer is a prayer given by Jesus to His disciples, which is why Christians praying it daringly call the God of Heaven "Father" (in the Aramaic: "Daddy"). Therefore, the prayer itself is really a prayer for the interior life of the Church; the words of the prayer are by no means a secret of course, but the prayer itself is "private" to the Church (not private as in it is only to be said alone, but that it is only to be said by Christians). The Lord's Prayer in schools would have to assume that all pupils were Christian, which would not be the case. Readings from the Bible and general Christian teaching within schools is indeed a good idea.
Last edited by Theophilus on November 12th, 2014, 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Bev » November 12th, 2014, 3:48 pm

GregB wrote:I don't let such emotional or subjective considerations get in the way of my objective analysis of the situation, although my own underlying Christian convictions tell me that this awful parody, possibly work of the devil, of true monotheistic religion will one day be evaporated as insubstantial shadowplay on the world stage.


From this post to God's ears, Greg. :good: :clapping:
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Pondero » November 12th, 2014, 5:06 pm

Readings from the New Testament would also assume that the students in school were all Christians too.
Now, when I was at school, those who did not fully approve of the Lords Prayer,and bible readings were excluded and could finish their homework in a private classroom.
I envied these students who were Catholic because they could not only finish their homework but arrive late for school. :grin: And nothing would be said.A priest on occasion did visit these Catholics who did not attend assembly.

Today, it would be the Muslims who would not attend assembly.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Lyn » November 12th, 2014, 10:42 pm

Not necessarily Pondy. There are still quite a few "good" schools with a broadly Christian ethos who have assembly, including the Lord's Prayer and hymns, and Muslims generally attend. Whether they actually recite or sing is a different matter but not everyone does that anyway.

Back in my schooldays - aged11-14 when I was at Sydenham High School - some of the Jewish girls didn't attend the entire morning assembly, they had something of their own with a Jewish teacher. They came in after the prayers and singing to hear all the announcements.

I imagine most state schools nowadays have a more inclusive type of assembly.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » November 14th, 2014, 3:56 pm

Theophilus wrote:But more importantly, the secularisation of Western countries need to be halted. Because what is clear is that secularisation doesn't merely separate church and state, but also marginalizes the cultural religion of a country (in this case Christianity) whilst allowing "non-native" faiths to flourish in ghettos. If there was a way of life that wasn't simply crass consumerism, hedonism and individualism then it would offer an actual alternative to Islam. And of course there is: it is Christianity.

Here's a couple of examples in the USA I've just come across of other unintended consequences, but also illustrate your point about the affects of the increasing secularization ...

If Jesus Isn’t Welcome In School… The Same Goes For Islam And Muhammad…
Fox News is reporting that a Marine Corps father has been banned from his daughter’s school after he complained about her homework assignment on Islam. Kevin Wood said his daughter was told to write a three page essay about Islam’s five pillars, at La Plata High School in Maryland. He argued that students can’t study Christianity in school “but we can force-feed our kids Islam.”
When are we going to weed out the hypocrites in our government. This is One Nation Under God not a Nation Under Islam. People have been trying to remove God from our schools for decades. Now we have school boards that say it’s ok to teach Islam, and talk about Muhammad.


School district scraps ALL religious holidays under pressure from Muslims
In a decision prompted by complaints from Muslim families, the board of education in Maryland’s largest school district on Tuesday voted to remove all Christian and Jewish holidays references from the school district calendar.

According to the Washington Times, the parents of Muslim children in the Montgomery County School District argued that religous holidays were not being observed equall, because school was not closed in observance of Muslim holidays but was closed for Christian or Jewish holidays.

According to the Times, Muslim community leaders complained that the Eid al-Adha holiday was not getting equal recognition on next year’s school calendar with the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur, both of which will fall on Sept. 23, 2015.

The Times reported that Superintendent Joshua P. Starr responded by recommending that the board adopt a plan that removed calendar references to Yom Kippur and another Jewish holiday, Rosh Hashanah, which would have dealt with the specific complaint at issue.

The board went further, though, voting 7-1 to remove references to all religious holidays.

On the above example, it appears that there are no winners though. From another link...

That said, the Board of Education's decision to scrub the school calendar of all religious holiday names isn't what the coalition was hoping to see.
"By stripping the names Christmas, Easter, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, they have alienated other communities now, and we are no closer to equality," Saqib Ali, a co-chairman of the Equality for Eid Coalition, told The Washington Post. "It's a pretty drastic step, and they did it without any public notification."

I've posted these and will continue to post others because I see the strategy for the spread of Islam as a two-pronged one. In areas where it is in the ascendancy, it establishes itself and maintains things by force. Here in the west, things are happening by stealth.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Bev » November 14th, 2014, 4:42 pm

It's actually not true that students can't study Christianity in school. All religions can be studied in the same way any cultural way of life can. What was outlawed was mandatory prayer, Bible reading, and the like. It would also be against the law for a public school to have readings from the Quran or to set aside time for Muslim students to pray.

That said, the Board of Education's decision to scrub the school calendar of all religious holiday names isn't what the coalition was hoping to see.
"By stripping the names Christmas, Easter, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, they have alienated other communities now, and we are no closer to equality," Saqib Ali, a co-chairman of the Equality for Eid Coalition, told The Washington Post. "It's a pretty drastic step, and they did it without any public notification."


In the USA, Islam is included with all the other religions.

Our Constitution would make it very difficult for Muslims to change laws that would allow Muslim-only worship. Unfortunately, Christianity has to be similarly restricted, but at least there is a way to legally fight Muslims from taking over. It also protects an individual's right to freedom of religion. It just doesn't protect the right of one religion to require others to recognize their religion in a public setting. Most Americans will understand the brilliance of "freedom of religion" if Muslims ever become a majority here. They would have to deny the Constitution and break the law to enforce Sharia law or Islam on others here.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Lyn » November 14th, 2014, 5:19 pm

That all sounds very good to me Bev. In theory, that is how it is over here though I do believe Christianity has an edge when it comes to education, possibly because we have an established church. Also some state schools (which you call "public schools", over here a public school is a private school), are faith schools, eg CofE and Catholic. The Orthodosx Jewish and Muslim schools charge fees, albeit very reasonable ones.

Freedom of religion is a wonderful thing, something to be cherished and something for you Americans to be proud of.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » November 15th, 2014, 4:13 pm

I think that what saddens me is that you have to take your values from somewhere. The secular influence wins by default. Despite the separation of church and state, there are still remnants of the Christian influence in the public sphere, a good thing in my opinion. When I used to watch baseball games on Channel 5 over here (before they stopped showing them a few years ago), I remember hearing these lyrics sung during the 7th innings stretch:

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.


Pondero has just started a thread on St. Thomas Aquinas, and I'll repost the quote from there:

Human law is only law in virtue of its accordance with right reason: and thus it is manifest that it flows from the eternal law. And in so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such a case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence.

So if there is no cognizance of God in the process? It seems to me that rather than trusting to God and asking for wisdom (as Solomon did!), we have rather thrown out the proverbial baby with the bathwater in order to eliminate a problem.

Both Theophilus and Pondero have mentioned either here or previously the need to return to Judeo-Christian values as a way to counter the rising radicalism of young people, so that they have an alternative. But if that alternative has been marginalised/removed, you're left with nowhere to go.
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Re: Jihad on our doorstep II

Postby Bev » November 15th, 2014, 10:05 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:I think that what saddens me is that you have to take your values from somewhere. The secular influence wins by default. Despite the separation of church and state, there are still remnants of the Christian influence in the public sphere, a good thing in my opinion.


I agree that this is a good thing. If we believe the Sodom and Gomorrah story, then we know that God is willing to spare all citizens for the sake of just a few righteous inhabitants.
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