EVOLUTION.

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » May 6th, 2015, 12:37 am

Val wrote:Leslie, what you would say regarding the fact of biological evolution of species bears little weight in the real world of science; fact is we are here now and from scientific investigation and observations we do seem to be related to a more primitive life-form that has gone before us, and that life was related to a still more primitive organism that went before that etc. and so on

Anyways, it still appears to me that you spend waaay! too much time in obscure sites copying and pasting dodgy equations that have no bearing on biological evolution or even on the nexus of our argument that of abiogenesis.


The equations are not dodgy Val, they are correct, and draw the conclusion that there isn't enough time in the history of the observable universe for the evolution of species to have taken place through pure chance.

I wrote a letter which covers this point to the Catholic Register which was published on April 19th, 2015. Here it is.

Evolution by design

Whilst agreeing with Michael Coren that there is no contradiction between true science and true religion. Darwin's theory of evolution, based on the mechanism of natural selection, is not the full truth.
There is genetic mutation to be taken into account, something Darwin was not aware of. Also,the work of Gregor Mendel, the Augustinian monk whose work on genetics was not known to Darwin, although they both lived in the 19th century. Mendel is called the founder of modern genetics.
Darwin did not acknowledge intelligent design as being part of his theory, although I think it is the most reasonable explanation for the change in species..

If everything was random, it would be statistically impossible for the species to evolve by chance alone.Intelligent design is the only alternative, unless of course you take Genesis literally.
Last edited by Pondero on May 6th, 2015, 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Sprocket » May 6th, 2015, 9:12 am

We've had this out before. I suspect that you are again assuming that each mutation occurs in isolation, rather than beneficial ones being retained, for later mutations to build on. As I have pointed out before, if you modernise the old monkeys-typing-Shakespeare analogy to a computer set to generate random letters, punctuation marks and spaces, you will never get Shakespeare's works, but if, each time a letter, punctuation mark or space happens to land in the right place, it is allowed to remain in the next pass, and so on for each successive pass, you will eventually get Shakespeare's complete works, within a reasonably short time. That is a more accurate analogy for how evolution works, since beneficial mutations are retained. That is why evolution is not a random process (and one does get sick to death of creationists - not necessarily you - parrotting the old nonsense about evolution being random): the mutations are individually random, but the retention of beneficial ones, and the elimination of harmful ones, is not - it follows a fixed law, the survival of the fittest.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » May 6th, 2015, 9:48 am

I like to discuss this topic as it is "forever young". The beneficial mutations are retained you say, and that is the mystery of evolution. Why are they retained and others ignored? That is the $40,000 question.

I have other things which I could add: one that relates to my previous post here is that the complete works of Shakespeare could be determined by random typing (which I didn't say before) if we had infinite time. But so far we have only had 4.3 billion earth years.
Let nothing disturb you.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Sprocket » May 9th, 2015, 9:32 am

Because they're beneficial! For heaven's sake - that's what the law of survival of the fittest is all about: mutations which help the organism survive and thrive will be retained, because that organism is more likely to reproduce, and pass the mutation on. For example - the fastest Thompson's gazelle in a herd is the one most likely to live long enough to reproduce, and pass on its gene for greater speed, because it's the one which is least likely to be killed by a cheetah.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » May 10th, 2015, 11:30 pm

Sprocket wrote:Because they're beneficial! For heaven's sake - that's what the law of survival of the fittest is all about: mutations which help the organism survive and thrive will be retained, because that organism is more likely to reproduce, and pass the mutation on. For example - the fastest Thompson's gazelle in a herd is the one most likely to live long enough to reproduce, and pass on its gene for greater speed, because it's the one which is least likely to be killed by a cheetah.


As it occurred to you that every law has a law giver.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Sprocket » May 11th, 2015, 11:14 am

Firstly, that's not necessarily true: you're confusing human laws - legislation - with natural laws.
Secondly, I'm a Christian as well, so am prepared to accept that the law of natural selection was deliberately given by God, though I don't think it's a logical necessity.
Thirdly, you have implicitly accepted the law of natural selection, which is an implicit acknowledgement of evolution.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » May 11th, 2015, 4:33 pm

I agree with two of your three points.All except the first one. That is reciprocal progress!
Let nothing disturb you.
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All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Sprocket » May 12th, 2015, 9:52 am

Hallelujah!
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » May 28th, 2015, 5:55 pm

Before we jump for joy Sprocket . I notice that evolutionists say two things in the main, and no other.


1. Natural selection is the only cause of evolution, according to them. They don't say how everything, cells etc select themselvers, not just horses. In other words natural selection processes are being extended to include the unknowable. It is used as a catch all for that which they do not know.

2. They insist that we have only the appearance of design but not design itself. What a cop out, where there is lots of smoke you usually see flames.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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