EVOLUTION.

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » March 23rd, 2015, 9:27 pm

Val wrote:
GregB wrote:Sorry Val, but it's just patronising to suggest that he's "confused". I mean, who are you, a leprechaun intellectually speaking next to a giant, a mere ventriloquist's dummy mouthing the bleatings of the new gods of atheism? Laughable...



What makes him giant? ...his education? ...his credentials? ...the fact that he is unsure what he believes in?,
he sure likes to talk, but can he be a Christian with his interpretation of the bible and his version of the God.

On humanism it made perfect sense to me from a philosophical and ethical stance
, but then the word has been hijacked

But I have changed especially for you :ugeek:


The mere fact that a mathematics and philosophy of science professor is a Christian, and allowed to debate the 'great Dawkins'' -is enough for me, to read what he said. Dawkins by the way won't debate with anyone who does not have certain academic qualifications. Such is the extent of the man's arrogance.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » March 24th, 2015, 4:56 pm

Val wrote:I am sure that John Lennox is a fine man with a good mind, a mathematician a man of science but very confused, he believes in Evolution but at some point along that evolutionary path he believes that God Almighty instilled human qualities into some of our evolutionary ancestors and they became persons like God himself, so for you literalists he doesn't accept the biblical account of creation or if he does then he is even more confused than he appears.

I'd recommend that you listen to this 10 minute clip and see if you think he is still confused.

John Lennox Vs. Richard Dawkins Christianity Vs Atheism

You may be interested for example in this snippet:
If there is a God and if He created this universe and if He is personal then I would expect certain things to follow
1. That I would see evidence, not proof, evidence that God exists.

Because the idea ladies and gentlemen that science can explain everything is seriously false. ...

He has an idea of what constitutes evidence of God's existence and how to evaluate it, so there may be something for you there? :idea:
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Val » March 25th, 2015, 10:33 am

Well SoTs I did listen to that clip and a follow on one but nothing new except a few more lies
Lennox stated that Christianity brought humanity the first universities.

Well what about

Shangyang, "higher school," China, established sometime during the Yu period: 2257-2208 BC

Nalanda University, Bihar, India, 5th c. BC "famous centre of Buddhist scholarship, attracting scholars from East, Central, and South-East Asia and China
Plato's Academy, Athens, 387 BC etc etc.
In one of those clips they kept pointing out how Dawkins couldn't answer which was plainly daft, anyways enough of this twaddle

Listen, Evolution is a fact, the process of how exactly it happens is a learning curve, how life started is even more difficult, maybe God started it, maybe it was spontaneous. We may never know but most of us take what evidence there is and accept that for the moment but keep seeking.

We all know each other here now for a number of years and there is no point in being insulting towards each other or trying to score points, so if we have arguments on religion or science then please don’t try to disprove scientific facts with biblical texts, it just doesn't work.

As I have often stated I am not sure if I could class myself as a true atheist, for me it is a learning process but all the available evidence is removing religion which I have to say was fairly sad but I am getting over it thankfully.
What I cannot stand are people who lie to try and prove a religious doctrine or point, there are liars in science but more easily found out because if science makes a statement it is easy to rebut or prove, with religion it must be accepted on faith.

So please no more long winded excerpts or videos using some one else’s ideas or words, if we must then let us argue these fine (religious /scientific) points amongst ourselves from our own experiences.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » March 25th, 2015, 2:12 pm

In European society the Catholic Church is responsible for the growth of schools and in the early Middle Ages the universities. I would say the universities started in the eleventh century, The Chartres school, Bologna , Oxford, Cambridge and Paris, evolved over time into universities from being Cathedral schools.

Without Christianity there would be no universities in Europe as we know them today.Aristotle, Plato and Socrates had some sort of schools, not like ours, so what?. All that proves is that the Ancient Greeks were educated. Not in Christian ethics which was taught in the Middle Ages, and led to such classics as Summa Contra Gentiles or Summa Theologica, determining the nature of God, or more importantly theology.
This is what makes our civilization different from that of the Greeks or the Chinese, the Buddhists, Hindus and Zoroastrians. We Christians have the truth in our Bible and Tradition,and liturgy and need nothing else except, the holy eucharist..I was forgetting that.
It is a superior faith to that of the Ancients.
The modern conflict between science (evolution ) and religion does not exist except in the minds of atheists.
Nor should it exist.There is no conflict between true science and true religion, as many Christians have pointed out.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Val » March 27th, 2015, 6:29 pm

Pondero wrote:In European society the Catholic Church is responsible for the growth of schools and in the early Middle Ages the universities. I would say the universities started in the eleventh century, The Chartres school, Bologna , Oxford, Cambridge and Paris, evolved over time into universities from being Cathedral schools.

Without Christianity there would be no universities in Europe as we know them today.Aristotle, Plato and Socrates had some sort of schools, not like ours, so what?. All that proves is that the Ancient Greeks were educated. Not in Christian ethics which was taught in the Middle Ages, and led to such classics as Summa Contra Gentiles or Summa Theologica, determining the nature of God, or more importantly theology.
This is what makes our civilization different from that of the Greeks or the Chinese, the Buddhists, Hindus and Zoroastrians. We Christians have the truth in our Bible and Tradition,and liturgy and need nothing else except, the holy eucharist..I was forgetting that.
It is a superior faith to that of the Ancients.
The modern conflict between science (evolution ) and religion does not exist except in the minds of atheists.
Nor should it exist.There is no conflict between true science and true religion, as many Christians have pointed out.


Don't forget Leslie, that Christianity and especially your favourite, "Catholicism" was forced on people at the end of very long and very sharp pointy things, the head of many an innocent human was removed lovingly from their body in that teaching process.

There are no schools teaching the atheist liturgy, no lies, no charges for non-existent miracles, nothing to gain but freedom.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » March 28th, 2015, 3:47 pm

'Don't forget Val ,That Islam ¶and especially your favourite The Koran was forced on people at the end of very long and very sharp pointy things, the head of many an innocent human was removed lovingly from their body in that teaching process.


I have changed a few words in your statement which makes it truer and more appropriate.
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Val » March 28th, 2015, 5:43 pm

Pondero wrote:
'Don't forget Val ,That Islam ¶and especially your favourite The Koran was forced on people at the end of very long and very sharp pointy things, the head of many an innocent human was removed lovingly from their body in that teaching process.


I have changed a few words in your statement which makes it truer and more appropriate.


It matters not that you changed it, but none of the above are my favourites. I have to accept that religion as practiced by the majority of religious followers has serious problems.

Religion as practiced by most is unhealthy, it is destructive, and it promotes fear and mistrust, even here in Thads amongst ourselves we can see the cracks and divisions, there is an attitude of “my religion is superior to yours”, my interpretation of the bible is the true version.
In some of the threads when Christians try and group together in an effort to put paid to the views or ideals of atheism or agonistism they seldom agree and barely tolerate each other’s religious views and these gaps between Christian denominations are getting bigger.

So what does the future hold for your religion as Christianity gets even more fractured?
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » March 28th, 2015, 8:18 pm

Val wrote

It matters not that you changed it, but none of the above are my favourites. I have to accept that religion as practiced by the majority of religious followers has serious problems.

Religion as practiced by most is unhealthy, it is destructive, and it promotes fear and mistrust, even here in Thads amongst ourselves we can see the cracks and divisions, there is an attitude of “my religion is superior to yours”, my interpretation of the bible is the true version.
In some of the threads when Christians try and group together in an effort to put paid to the views or ideals of atheism or agonistism they seldom agree and barely tolerate each other’s religious views and these gaps between Christian denominations are getting bigger.
So what does the future hold for your religion as Christianity gets even more fractured?


I have now finished my own income tax returns and will netfile them on Monday so I have now more time to talk.Not that I will do, but at least I am finished with tax.
I don't think we say to one another here "my religion is superior to yours" we are more polite than that and are sensitive to the feelings of others who don't share all our religious views. Of course we Christians don't all agree, but we learn a lot here.
True enough there are now many Christian denominations, but so far we haven't gone to war against each other, as have the Shiites and the Sunni. Muslims. :grin:
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Pondero » April 30th, 2015, 4:55 pm

In case anyone has missed it, I want to say that it is impossible for the species.to evolve by random chance alone. And don't talk about natural selection , which is not random.
I think mathematicians are convinced that is statistically impossible for species to change in the time alloted in the history of the observable universe, by random chance alone! We do not have infinite time for this to happen.We have 10^17 seconds, only.Within that time frame we have to get a humble proton, for example, to produce by chance a 150 amino acid functional protein, you have at least 10^164 other possible nonfunctional sequences of the same length in order to get that protein. ( the protein was described in detail earlier in Meyer's book.)
Therefore, to get a 50 :50 chance of producing a single protein (you have to) generate more than one half of the 10^164 non functional sequences corresponding to each functional sequence of that length.(required).
That (resulting ) number exceeds the most probabilistic resources of the entire universe that is more than the number of events which could have occured since the beginning of its existence(.Stephen C.Meyer,"Signature in the Cell", p.217)

The total number of events , called probabilistic resources of the entire observable universe is 10^140.* which is less than 10^164.
Now,that proves that the probability was zero,that the life of changing species was not by chance alone. But,as we know it exists, there are two possibilities only which can explain this phenomenom, Intelligent Design or direct creation.

*The shortest distance between two points is no longer (in my way of expressing things) the distance between two points but the Planck length of 10^-33 centimetres and the "speed" between two quanta which allows an interaction of at most of 10^43 times a second .But, since elementary particles can interact with other elementary particles a maximum of 10^43 times, and since there are a limited number of elementary particles 10^80 and only 10^17 seconds since the big bang,There are a limited number of opportunities for any given event to occur in the history of the universe. Multiply 10^43 by 10^80 by 10^17 and you get 10^140,
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Re: EVOLUTION.

Postby Val » May 5th, 2015, 6:38 pm

Leslie, what you would say regarding the fact of biological evolution of species bears little weight in the real world of science; fact is we are here now and from scientific investigation and observations we do seem to be related to a more primitive life-form that has gone before us, and that life was related to a still more primitive organism that went before that etc. and so on

Anyways, it still appears to me that you spend waaay! too much time in obscure sites copying and pasting dodgy equations that have no bearing on biological evolution or even on the nexus of our argument that of abiogenesis.
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