Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 24th, 2015, 7:24 am

:D Poor Karl - another lemming! Of course, the notion that Christ would approve of homosexual marriage is ludicrous and just plain wishful thinking, in line with the spirit of our benighted age. It's true that he never rejected sinners (he dined and drank with societal outcasts, including whores, after all!) but he did not sanction their behaviour as part of the package. He forgave the woman taken in adultery (John ch.8) but told her, "Go, and do not sin again." (He didn't say, "Well, as long as you have a loving relationship with your current lover, that's all right.")

Interesting picture. The rainbow was given as a sign of God's new covenant with humanity after the Flood with his pledge never to deliver judgement on sinful humanity by water again (of course, that always leaves fire and brimstone, as with Sodom and Gomorrah!) Perhaps here we can rather fancifully take that double rainbow as a sign of coming judgement this time.

On Val's post, when I mentioned sin, I wasn't referring to any specific sin, such as homosexual behaviour, but rather the human sinful condition in general. Perhaps another three-letter word is apposite: ego. Our ego demands that everything we desire should be granted us and our desires, with the whitewash of faux legitimacy, should be satisfied. As for heterosexuals having the better deal, Christian heterosexuals (ie. the vast majority) have no licence to indulge in promiscuous behaviour and should be expected to restrain their desires if they are single. Of course, when they are married their natural desires have a green light (as opposed to a red light!) while there is no such possibility for homosexuals within the church. That might seem hard, but the Christian life is not supposed to be easy street (with wide gates) and sacrifice of those aspects of our fallen nature regarded as sinful is expected, not least by Christ himself (carrying your cross daily, as he called on his followers to do, doesn't mean wearing a dinky little silver version round your neck.)
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 24th, 2015, 11:13 am

“The human sinful condition” and of course we as humans inherit it from out parents, all the way back to Eve, do you really think that it is fair?

Do you think that it is ok for God Almighty to visit this sinful condition on us especially the non-sinning humans?

How about if we took it literally and held descendants responsible for the action of their great great great etc etc. grandparents, would you mind paying indefinitely for some long forgotten relatives transgressions? And would you find it ok to pass on this debt to your children and your children’s children ad infinitum.

Homosexuality is not a chosen order or lifestyle; it appears from all studies so far to be genetic, so how can a loving God treat it as abhorrent, it was his mistake. And no point saying that we love the sinner but not the sin! In this case you cannot separate the two, and it appears that there were cases of homosexual love in the bible with Ruth and Naomi, with Jonathan and David, afterwards David wrote “Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women”.
And what of Eunuchs, weren't many of these just homosexual men as the bible says “born that way”

On marriage it is a strange custom, I think many forget that in biblical time’s women were sold in marriage contracts (agreements drawn up between families) sometimes they were sold as children with the consummation taking place at puberty where virginity had to be proven to the grooms family by a bloodied cloth and where the groom had to show he could consummate the contract, this only for inheritance reasons, modern marriage rituals are very different that those Jesus would have recognised.

Anyway enough for now, I must away to earn a crust.
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 24th, 2015, 11:34 am

Sorry Val, but I won't be responding to this dreary, cliché-ridden stuff - it's just not worth the effort. You really believe the points you raise are worth considering but they're just the petty objections of someone who has, like Esau, given up his birthright for a mess of half-baked potage posing as real, valid criticism and who fires off blunt darts which don't even reach anywhere near their target. You see, there are those who are forever questioning, not realising that their limited mental resources (like all of us) are just not up to it and who will tragically never reach the end of their questioning. Oh, and I'm not being religiously elitist - we're all in the same boat, seeing through a glass darkly, but faith starts when all the futile, restless, neverending questioning stops.

Go and earn your crust, Val. You're a decent fellow but one who, in my view, has taken a sadly wrong direction existentially and philosophically.
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 24th, 2015, 11:38 am

dreary, cliché-ridden stuff - thank you
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 24th, 2015, 12:11 pm

Well, it is! You really think these questions you keep trotting out have any merit or weight? I've already said (like a lot of my posts, you miss the main point) that you just keep on asking these supposedly searching questions, like children constantly saying ""Why is this, why is that Dad?", instead of stopping and trying to reflect in other less mechanical ways (probably conditioned by the layman's excessive faith in scientific explanations for 'life and everything'), not least on the basis - as I tried to say - that we're all limited in our understanding of life - yes, all of us - and. at some point, have to recognise that we'll never have all the answers. Faith also means trust, but not trust in our own - I repeat - woefully limited mental resources. (And especially from an atheist's point of view just hard-wired, evolutionary programming without any other, intrinsic value.)
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » May 24th, 2015, 1:36 pm


GregB wrote:Interesting picture. The rainbow was given as a sign of God's new covenant with humanity after the Flood with his pledge never to deliver judgement on sinful humanity by water again (of course, that always leaves fire and brimstone, as with Sodom and Gomorrah!) Perhaps here we can rather fancifully take that double rainbow as a sign of coming judgement this time.

I too will be taking this as a warning. Here's another reason why...

The rainbow in the visible spectrum of light is made up of 7 colours: Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, Red. In the Bible, 7 is the number of perfection. Those in the gay rights lobby have hijacked the rainbow (a way of saying, this is the way things are to be now and changed it so that it only has six colours. Two rainbows in the sky thus emphasizes the point!

A reminder (with emphasis) by God perhaps of what is true, regardless of what man tries to do to change things...
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Sprocket » May 24th, 2015, 1:42 pm

I was trying to lighten the tone a little, but since you mention it, rainbows do in fact have only six colours. Sir Isaac Newton, when doing his pioneering work on optics, convinced himself that he could see indigo between blue and violet, because he thought that it ought to have seven colours, seven being, as you say, the number of perfection. Newton was interested in numerology. (Actually, according to Wikipedia, a human eye can distinguish 100 or so different colours or shades in the spectrum. Seven is an arbitrary number, assigned by analogy with the musical scale and the days of the week. Indigo is really just dark blue, though.)
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » May 24th, 2015, 1:50 pm

Val wrote:dreary, cliché-ridden stuff - thank you

Val: A key point in Greg's post to which you responded is this:

He wrote:I've already said (like a lot of my posts, you miss the main point) that you just keep on asking these supposedly searching questions, like children constantly saying ""Why is this, why is that Dad?", instead of stopping and trying to reflect in other less mechanical ways (probably conditioned by the layman's excessive faith in scientific explanations for 'life and everything'), not least on the basis - as I tried to say - that we're all limited in our understanding of life - yes, all of us - and. at some point, have to recognise that we'll never have all the answers.

Imagine what it would be like if someone asked you, "What is 2+2", and you replied, "4", and they said, "It's not 4", but continued to ask the question because they cannot prove the result? They would be destined to be forever searching, questioning, yet never arriving at the answer. At some point, you have to take a step of faith and believe.
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 24th, 2015, 2:50 pm

Religious faith is a strange concept, more easily accepted by those indoctrinated into religion, and who follow without question, this out of fear
I have no such fear, but I can see that many religions have created a monstrous God capable of inflicting terrible atrocities upon his weak human creation.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and can still remember as a child praying to God Almighty to save us from the everlasting fires of hell. The very same fires he created .
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » May 24th, 2015, 3:19 pm

Val wrote:Religious faith is a strange concept, more easily accepted by those indoctrinated into religion, and who follow without question, this out of fear
I have no such fear, but I can see that many religions have created a monstrous God capable of inflicting terrible atrocities upon his weak human creation.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and can still remember as a child praying to God Almighty to save us from the everlasting fires of hell. The very same fires he created .

Well, if this is the way you are thinking, I don't see that you have grounds for complaint when someone implies that there is no point in responding to your post. Your mind is already made up, rendering any questions as at best rhetorical and at worst a way of trying to falsify that which you cannot disprove.
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