Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 24th, 2015, 3:55 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:
Val wrote:Religious faith is a strange concept, more easily accepted by those indoctrinated into religion, and who follow without question, this out of fear
I have no such fear, but I can see that many religions have created a monstrous God capable of inflicting terrible atrocities upon his weak human creation.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and can still remember as a child praying to God Almighty to save us from the everlasting fires of hell. The very same fires he created .

Well, if this is the way you are thinking, I don't see that you have grounds for complaint when someone implies that there is no point in responding to your post. Your mind is already made up, rendering any questions as at best rhetorical and at worst a way of trying to falsify that which you cannot disprove.

Indeed. Val's post is just a sad exercise in continuing resentment and brittle bravado and has nothing to do with the present discussion, though it does demonstrate one thing - you are clearly only capable of constant, sweeping sledgehammer attacks on Christianity, Val. Moreover, you fail to address the majority of points made in posts in discussions such as this, something that more open-minded and less vehement opponents of Christianity would probably undertake. And your lurid, hair-raising description of the Christian religion is frankly tosh. A more reasonable person might try to see their own experience of the abuses of Catholicism in a broader perspective rather than just tar the whole religion with the same brush.

Enough said.
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Pondero » May 25th, 2015, 10:41 pm

Well, I have just returned from cottage country or I would have responded.However, Sword of the Spirit and especially Greg have made excellent Christian rebuttals to Val, and Sprocket.

The facts are that the 'Yes side won with a ratio of 3:2 against the ' No' side, not 2:1 as one over enthusiastic tv commentator said on. CRTV. Another referendum should be held once the Catholic Church has re-converted its Irish flock.A lot of the 'Yes' vote people wanted to get their own back at the Catholic Church - for more than one reason.

Sodomy is a sin, as is fornication or adultery or any number of other actions.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 26th, 2015, 10:16 am

Pondero wrote:Well, I have just returned from cottage country or I would have responded.However, Sword of the Spirit and especially Greg have made excellent Christian rebuttals to Val, and Sprocket.

The facts are that the 'Yes side won with a ratio of 3:2 against the ' No' side, not 2:1 as one over enthusiastic tv commentator said on. CRTV. Another referendum should be held once the Catholic Church has re-converted its Irish flock.A lot of the 'Yes' vote people wanted to get their own back at the Catholic Church - for more than one reason.

Sodomy is a sin, as is fornication or adultery or any number of other actions.


The yes vote has been good for the country to clean away old outdated attitudes, and if the Catholic Church lost anything then its their own fault.

As for following the laws in Levicitus which are the most important for the people today?
This one "Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God"
What about statues of Mary the mother of Jesus or images of saints, do they not count here.

What about the value of women "If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to theLORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven."

Is this still sinful "If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people."

And this "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head"

And what of this one "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Or this one "Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. 22 You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God."

If all of God's laws are equal then why not abide by all just as diligently as you do those which refer to homosexuality.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Pondero » May 26th, 2015, 12:18 pm

This is ridiculous, we are not Jews subject to ancient Jewish law, only the parts of it approved by Jesus Christ apply to Christians.
Read Romans 1 to find out about sinful sexual relations including Sodomy Val.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 26th, 2015, 6:22 pm

Pondero wrote:This is ridiculous, we are not Jews subject to ancient Jewish law, only the parts of it approved by Jesus Christ apply to Christians.
Read Romans 1 to find out about sinful sexual relations including Sodomy Val.


But Paul was Jewish he was a well educated man fluent in Aramaic, observant of the laws and most likely so until his death, here is how he described himself (Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the He-brews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless)
In Acts he stated (I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city [Jerusalem] at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.)

Paul would have observed all of the scripture and that included all of Leviticus

So it still stands unless certain scriptures that you don't like can be discounted or deleted, but then who can decide
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John Stuart Mill

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 26th, 2015, 7:14 pm

Your first quote is from Philippians chapter 3 where Paul goes on to dismiss all of his strict Jewish/Pharisee background as "rubbish for the sake of knowing Christ" while the second quote is from Acts chapter 23 where he goes on to talk about his persecution of the church before his conversion to Christ on the road to Damascus, clearly dissociating himself from that phase in his life. There is, therefore, no warrant for your saying: "Paul would have observed all of the scripture and that included all of Leviticus" or that he was "observant of the laws and most likely so until his death". (If you're going to quote texts, don't rip them out of their context.)

In any event, the Christian take on homosexuality (and adultery, fornication, etc.) is not based on Levitical laws but on the foundational fact that God created male and female as the only licit partners in the union sanctified as marriage. There are no variations of that but there are also no punishments (in this life) for violations of it. Christ prevented the crowd from stoning the woman taken in adultery, forgiving her but telling her not to sin again (John chapter 8.) Paul would have taken that as his model, not the Law.
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Pondero » May 26th, 2015, 7:50 pm

The fundamental fact is that St.Paul taught the doctrine of Jesus Christ not that of the Jews, that I pointed out and Greg has given a scriptural basis for doing so. It does point out that Val should have been a politician because he can convince the back leg of a donkey that what he says is true when he knows it isn't.
:hello: :mrgreen:


Cheers!
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby Val » May 27th, 2015, 9:53 am

GregB wrote:Your first quote is from Philippians chapter 3 where Paul goes on to dismiss all of his strict Jewish/Pharisee background as "rubbish for the sake of knowing Christ" while the second quote is from Acts chapter 23 where he goes on to talk about his persecution of the church before his conversion to Christ on the road to Damascus, clearly dissociating himself from that phase in his life. There is, therefore, no warrant for your saying: "Paul would have observed all of the scripture and that included all of Leviticus" or that he was "observant of the laws and most likely so until his death". (If you're going to quote texts, don't rip them out of their context.)


Everything is out of context.
Anyway, after his conversion Paul never revoked his Jewish culture or faith, nor did he declare that he was a follower of any new religious movement, had he done that he would have been a free man.
Paul had a vision of a brand of Judaism with Jesus as the Jewish messiah; he never revoked his Jewish culture although he did regret his persecution of the followers of Jesus but as he stated it was his zeal for the law which he held very deeply, it was only after his death the break started.
But without him there would have been no Christianity.

On the Gay marriage ....well we will never agree but IMMHO it is good that a much maligned group of our very human race have been given the equality they richly deserve.
And I am glad that the Irish people are the first to go this route, hopefully the Church leaders will catch up with the wishes of the people before it is too late for them, maybe we need a new messiah to lead us out of this ridiculous religious intransigence
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John Stuart Mill

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » May 27th, 2015, 11:27 am

Val wrote:On the Gay marriage ....well we will never agree but IMMHO it is good that a much maligned group of our very human race have been given the equality they richly deserve.

There is no equality to be richly deserved Val. Marriage is defined as one man + one woman. Therefore, any prefix to the word marriage should be a type of marriage between a man and a woman.

In order to claim inequality, the term marriage had to have been redefined first to include
- male + male
- male + female
- female + female
Only then can one claim inequality as only male + female was recognized. On whose authority and whose mandate was the definition of marriage changed?
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Re: Ireland Referendum on same sex marriage

Postby GregB » May 27th, 2015, 11:57 am

Val wrote:
Everything is out of context.

Sorry but what is this supposed to mean? You ripped quotes from Phlippians and Acts out of context and now you try to cover your tracks with this piece of craven glossing over. If everything is out of context, that must include your strained attempts at Biblical exegesis, no doubt influenced by your Jehovah's Witnesses friends.
Anyway, after his conversion Paul never revoked his Jewish culture or faith, nor did he declare that he was a follower of any new religious movement, had he done that he would have been a free man.
Paul had a vision of a brand of Judaism with Jesus as the Jewish messiah; he never revoked his Jewish culture although he did regret his persecution of the followers of Jesus but as he stated it was his zeal for the law which he held very deeply, it was only after his death the break started.
But without him there would have been no Christianity.

This is not the same as your earlier assertion that Paul continued with the Jewish law after his conversion, so once again you're trying to cover your tracks. Culture is one thing, holding fast to all of the Law is another. There are many other Pauline texts which show his revised approach to the Law and the role of faith.

Oh, and there would always have been Christianity by one means or another.

[Later: Parts edited out which would probably just be water off a duck's back...]
Last edited by GregB on May 27th, 2015, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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