The existence (or not) of God.

The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner.
Forum rules
The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » October 3rd, 2016, 3:45 pm

Sprocket wrote:Except that the U.C.C. is considering expelling her.

In my opinion, there's nothing to consider. She should be out already!!

Sprocket wrote:One shouldn't generalise from particular instances

The comments in my previous post were based not just on this particular incident, but an increasing theme that I see being discussed in quite a few places. For example, some of my evangelical Facebook friends stateside post on these kind of themes regularly. The central issue is always someone within a church/denomination trying to change the way things are done, rather than coming out and setting up their own organisation to do things the way they believe it should be done.

Sprocket wrote:but in my case at least, Evangelical Christianity destroyed my faith, back in 1992, when I finally realised that I couldn't believe all the things evagelicals are supposed to believe, and one year later, liberal Christianity - specifically, a re-reading of 'Honest to God' by J.A.T.Robinson, and 'The Shaking of the Foundations' by Paul Tillich - brought me back to a more reasonable version of the faith.

But in your case Sprocket, you came out of it and found something that was more suitable to where you were at. You didn't stay in it and try and change it to your way of thinking. In fact, that's something I've done too. That's the difference between your approach and the lady in the link, in my opinion. If the lady feels as she does, why doesn't she come out of the United Church of Canada and start up her own church, or better still, become a humanist?
SwordOfTheSpirit
 
Posts: 737
Joined: November 21st, 2007, 1:42 pm

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » October 3rd, 2016, 5:11 pm

In short, for Tillich, faith does not stand opposed to rational or nonrational elements (reason and emotion respectively), as some philosophers would maintain. Rather, it transcends them in an ecstatic passion for the ultimate.[36]

It should also be noted that Tillich does not exclude atheists in his exposition of faith. Everyone has an ultimate concern, and this concern can be in an act of faith, "even if the act of faith includes the denial of God. Where there is ultimate concern, God can be denied only in the name of God"[37]


You can have faith that fairies live at the bottom of the garden.I would not lump faith in God with Faith in atheism myself. I don't see how Tillich can maintain the view that the ultimate concern trumps faith.And does he accept as legitimate any belief whatsoever? I would have thought that theism and atheism contradict each other.
36 and 37.
^ Tillich Interview part 12 on YouTube
^ Tillich, Dynamics of Faith, p. 52
If your mind is your brain and your brain is just material , would you rely on it?
John Lennox
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12424
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Sprocket » October 3rd, 2016, 6:01 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:
Sprocket wrote:Except that the U.C.C. is considering expelling her.

In my opinion, there's nothing to consider. She should be out already!!
There are always procedures to be gone through before anyone, in any job, can be sacked, and quite right too.
Sprocket wrote:One shouldn't generalise from particular instances

The comments in my previous post were based not just on this particular incident, but an increasing theme that I see being discussed in quite a few places. For example, some of my evangelical Facebook friends stateside post on these kind of themes regularly. The central issue is always someone within a church/denomination trying to change the way things are done, rather than coming out and setting up their own organisation to do things the way they believe it should be done.

Sprocket wrote:but in my case at least, Evangelical Christianity destroyed my faith, back in 1992, when I finally realised that I couldn't believe all the things evangelicals are supposed to believe, and one year later, liberal Christianity - specifically, a re-reading of 'Honest to God' by J.A.T.Robinson, and 'The Shaking of the Foundations' by Paul Tillich - brought me back to a more reasonable version of the faith.

But in your case Sprocket, you came out of it and found something that was more suitable to where you were at. You didn't stay in it and try and change it to your way of thinking. In fact, that's something I've done too. That's the difference between your approach and the lady in the link, in my opinion. If the lady feels as she does, why doesn't she come out of the United Church of Canada and start up her own church, or better still, become a humanist?

But your original point was that this kind of thing is encouraged by a denomination becoming more liberal, and less biblical. I pointed out that the U.C.C. was in fact taking action. I agree that she should leave the U.C.C. of her own accord.
A cat once got frozen to -273 C, but it's 0k now.
User avatar
Sprocket
 
Posts: 15803
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:21 am
Location: Hemel Hempstead, Herts.

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby GregB » October 3rd, 2016, 6:49 pm

The UCC is, indeed, taking action:
“In our opinion, she is not suitable to continue in ordained ministry because she does not believe in God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. Ms. Vosper does not recognize the primacy of scripture, she will not conduct the sacraments, and she is no longer in essential agreement with the statement of doctrine of The United Church of Canada,” (Article, paragraph 6.)
However, it seems there will be no formal dismissal, not least because:
"If in the end, if the church declares her unsuitable to continue as a minister, Vosper indicated that she’ll leave the United Church."
(Article, concluding paragraph.)

As the UCC committee has found her unsuitable to continue, her voluntary departure will evidently soon follow without any ecclesiastical compulsion proving necessary. I wonder if this precedent will result in many other closet ordained atheists coming out of the sacristy.
"The war of peoples will be more terrible than those of kings."
- Winston Churchill (1901)
User avatar
GregB
 
Posts: 15484
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:23 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » October 4th, 2016, 12:27 am

Oh goody she's leaving. The United Church HQ is only five kms away from my house, not that that means anything.There is a member of the United Church who lives on our street who is well educated and involved in charitable causes called Dale.The next time I see her I will discuss this subject.She collects from us and others on the street donations for "Heart and Stroke". She is a wonderful lady I have mentioned before over the years.
My thoughts are that Gretta Vosper will be well treated financially for leaving quietly, they don't want to make a fuss, after all the 2008 book Gretta Vosper wrote didn't cause a stir and it should have ." With or Without God" It was a best seller, I believe.
If your mind is your brain and your brain is just material , would you rely on it?
John Lennox
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12424
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

Previous

Return to In depth

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest