The existence (or not) of God.

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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Lyn » September 27th, 2016, 5:19 pm

You're a great one for trotting out names, Pondy. You've done it more than once before and always the same names. It is arrogant for any of us to decide who is a prime candidate for endless punishment (if there is such a thing). That must be God's job, surely.

Even the vilest person who ever lived did not go on committing atrocities endlessly - they died. So by that reasoning any punishment will be finite.
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » September 27th, 2016, 6:32 pm

Read what I wrote again, and you will see I am not judging them.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » September 27th, 2016, 6:34 pm

Pondero wrote:Read what I wrote again, and you will see I am not judging them.


I trot out the same names because they are the same people in history who committed the same crimes in the last century which was the most evil century known to mankind.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby GregB » October 3rd, 2016, 7:27 am

This seems like the appropriate thread for this article about a Protestant minister in a Canadian church who is a declared atheist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... in-canada/

I don't think it's too harsh to describe her now as an impostor. One thing is liberal Christianity, which still holds to the existence of God (albeit with certain nuances and reservations at times), quite another is to maintain a position as pastor (ie. a minister of God) of a Christian church while totally denying the existence of the deity. Atheist 'churches' do exist*, but at least they don't have any of the traditional trappings and liturgies of Christian churches, still less ordained ministers. Perhaps this woman should start one herself...

[* Googling brings up various articles on the subject.]
"I hate reality but it's still the best place to get a good steak."
- Woody Allen
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » October 3rd, 2016, 10:56 am

GregB wrote:This seems like the appropriate thread for this article about a Protestant minister in a Canadian church who is a declared atheist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... in-canada/

I don't think it's too harsh to describe her now as an impostor. One thing is liberal Christianity, which still holds to the existence of God (albeit with certain nuances and reservations at times), quite another is to maintain a position as pastor (ie. a minister of God) of a Christian church while totally denying the existence of the deity. Atheist 'churches' do exist*, but at least they don't have any of the traditional trappings and liturgies of Christian churches, still less ordained ministers. Perhaps this woman should start one herself...

[* Googling brings up various articles on the subject.]


I have read this a week or so ago.I think she should be kicked out of the church, metaphorically speaking ,for not believing in the Christian God in any one of the commonly accepted ways of believing or understanding what is meant by the concept of God. She is a free loader and should be excommunicated in the Bell,Book and Candle way of the old Roman Catholic Church as a scandal to the Church and a heretic of the worst kind.
Unfortunately, I am no longer surprised by the antics of Church people of any kind or of Canadians in general, who accept every modern fad from assisted suicide to whatever someone can think of next such as denying doctors the right not to put to death their patients.There is no sanity here, no reason or conscience. That is why I bury myself in hobbies of a mathematical or scientific bent. :eek:
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Lyn » October 3rd, 2016, 11:13 am

Pondy: "I think she should be kicked out of the church, metaphorically speaking... as opposed to metaphysically speaking?

Yes, it seems ridiculous for anyone to hold a religious ministerial position if they don't believe. There are plenty of other things she can do which encompass the pastoral and social aspects of her current ministry, that don't require her to stand up in a church with a ministerial title.
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » October 3rd, 2016, 11:38 am

I don't think the minister knows the meaning of the word 'metaphysics'.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » October 3rd, 2016, 2:00 pm

GregB wrote:This seems like the appropriate thread for this article about a Protestant minister in a Canadian church who is a declared atheist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... in-canada/

I support what both you and Pondero have said on this.

One thought: I don't believe that things like this can happen overnight. I would suspect that over time there has been a gradual slipping away from core biblical themes in that denomination (United Church of Canada). The church is supposed to be a light to the world, but there is a danger that in some areas, it is more and more a case of the world being a light to the church, with some churches/denominations altering their teaching to fit in with secular contemporary ideals.
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Pondero » October 3rd, 2016, 2:42 pm

Bell Book and Candle in all its majesty.Nothing wishy washy about it.Latin is a great universal language.And use of 'him' in the ,English translation includes 'her' too.

Idcirco eum cum universis complicibus, fautoribusque suis, judicio Dei omnipotentis Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, et beati Petri principis Apostolorum, et omnium Sanctorum, necnon et mediocritatis nostrae auctoritate, et potestate ligandi et solvendi in coelo et in terra nobis divinitus collata, a pretiosi Corporis et Sanguinis Domini perceptione, et a societate omnium Christianorum separamus, et a liminibus sanctae matris Ecclesiae in coelo et in terra excludimus, et excommunicatum et anathematizatum esse decernimus; et damnatum cum diabolo, et angelis ejus, et omnibus reprobis in ignem aeternum judicamus; donec a diaboli laqueis resipiscat, et ad emendationem, et poenitentiam redeat, et Ecclesiae Dei, quam laesit, satisfaciat, tradentes eum satanae in interitum carnis, ut spiritus ejus salvus fiat in die judicii.[2]

In English:

Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive him and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.[1]
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: The existence (or not) of God.

Postby Sprocket » October 3rd, 2016, 2:52 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:
GregB wrote:This seems like the appropriate thread for this article about a Protestant minister in a Canadian church who is a declared atheist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... in-canada/

I support what both you and Pondero have said on this.

One thought: I don't believe that things like this can happen overnight. I would suspect that over time there has been a gradual slipping away from core biblical themes in that denomination (United Church of Canada). The church is supposed to be a light to the world, but there is a danger that in some areas, it is more and more a case of the world being a light to the church, with some churches/denominations altering their teaching to fit in with secular contemporary ideals.
Except that the U.C.C. is considering expelling her. One shouldn't generalise from particular instances, but in my case at least, Evangelical Christianity destroyed my faith, back in 1992, when I finally realised that I couldn't believe all the things evagelicals are supposed to believe, and one year later, liberal Christianity - specifically, a re-reading of 'Honest to God' by J.A.T.Robinson, and 'The Shaking of the Foundations' by Paul Tillich - brought me back to a more reasonable version of the faith.
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