Moral Progress

The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner.
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The place to debate matters of faith and religion in a more rigorous manner. Differing perspectives from both Christians and non-Christians are actively welcomed, but contributors should come prepared to justify their opinions and beliefs, while showing due respect to the views of others.

Re: Moral Progress

Postby Val » November 3rd, 2017, 12:12 pm

Pondero wrote:https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/16816/index.do

This is the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada , today on the ktunaxa Aboriginal tribe.

Nice try guys! :grin:


That decision by the Court does not make it right
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Pondero » November 3rd, 2017, 2:41 pm

I agree ,but I think the Supreme Court is correct in this case.
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Val » November 3rd, 2017, 5:00 pm

Pondero wrote:I agree ,but I think the Supreme Court is correct in this case.

I would be interested to know why you think that a way of life filled with tradition and culture that has survived for so long is less important than a ski resort.
In a few hundred years time what will be remembered and researched the most, that resort! or the culture and tradition of a people that survived for over a thousand years in harsh conditions until white settlers destroyed and buried all that they held sacred.
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Lyn » November 3rd, 2017, 5:07 pm

I came back to respond to Greg's post but I must have dreamed it.
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby GregB » November 3rd, 2017, 5:59 pm

Ah, so you saw it before I decided to remove it (which I did on reflection as strongly-held views aren't to everyone's taste nowadays.) Still, after reading Val's latest post with his eulogy for 'tradition and culture' (ie. ignorance, misogyny, gratuitous cruelty, obscurantism, shamans, crude attempts at art, etc. etc.), not to mention his comment about what these people hold sacred, which is rich coming from an atheist who regards all forms of religion as superstitious nonsense, I've decided to restore it. Before, though, please bear in mind one of my main points: sniping critics all benefit greatly from the society they hypocritically malign and would run a hundred miles from the kind of primitive society they romanticise. And, again, God knows there have been dreadful abuses in the spread of Western civilisation, but its benefits are infinitely superior to those it has displaced and saved from their own dark cycle of eternal recurrence.
Anyway, here's that post, somewhat amended and added to...

I must say, Val, that I find risible your typically romanticised defence ('the noble savage') of primitive tribes which, in fact, practised cruel barbarities in a totally static condition of ignorance which didn't advance in hundreds or thousands of years. Moreover, I find your assertion that these tribes have the right to the land as they were there first unconvincing. There is no natural, or indeed international law to support that and, still less, personal emotionally-determined opinions. Indeed, brutal as it is, there may be another right; ie. the right of conquest, above all if it brought about progress, development and increasing freedom from the horrors of primitive societies and lives which were, in the words of John Donne, 'nasty, brutish and short'. After all, as an atheist, you must surely admit that morality is simply an arbitrary construction and evolution determines the survival of the fittest.

You give us your take on the rights of native peoples. But, hang on - where did your own lifestyle, not to mention the computers (and other modern technology) you love so much, as well as all the wonders of modern science which enrich our lives, emerge from? From Judeo-Christian European civilisation which spread its gospel of progress and societal advancement (for all its evident flaws and abuses) throughout the rest of the world (and, again, which you benefit from totally) vanquishing Stone Age leftovers. Or perhaps you'd prefer to be living in a draughty teepee with some smelly squabbling squaws as you try to eat your raw buffalo meat with your rotting teeth. (Oops - no dentists in the land of the noble savage!)

Again, we have little to feel guilty about and much to feel proud of, as I'm sure many of the descendents of the original inhabitants (malcontents and drunks apart) living infinitely better lives would agree. As for ski resorts, offer the locals shares in the company behind it and even jobs on site; I'm sure they'd jump at the opportunity and use their totem poles for winter firewood...
"The war of peoples will be more terrible than those of kings."
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Val » November 3rd, 2017, 8:43 pm

GregB wrote:Ah, so you saw it before I decided to remove it (which I did on reflection as strongly-held views aren't to everyone's taste nowadays.) Still, after reading Val's latest post with his eulogy for 'tradition and culture' (ie. ignorance, misogyny, gratuitous cruelty, obscurantism, shamans, crude attempts at art, etc. etc.), not to mention his comment about what these people hold sacred, which is rich coming from an atheist who regards all forms of religion as superstitious nonsense, I've decided to restore it. Before, though, please bear in mind one of my main points: sniping critics all benefit greatly from the society they hypocritically malign and would run a hundred miles from the kind of primitive society they romanticise. And, again, God knows there have been dreadful abuses in the spread of Western civilisation, but its benefits are infinitely superior to those it has displaced and saved from their own dark cycle of eternal recurrence.
Anyway, here's that post, somewhat amended and added to...

I must say, Val, that I find risible your typically romanticised defence ('the noble savage') of primitive tribes which, in fact, practised cruel barbarities in a totally static condition of ignorance which didn't advance in hundreds or thousands of years. Moreover, I find your assertion that these tribes have the right to the land as they were there first unconvincing. There is no natural, or indeed international law to support that and, still less, personal emotionally-determined opinions. Indeed, brutal as it is, there may be another right; ie. the right of conquest, above all if it brought about progress, development and increasing freedom from the horrors of primitive societies and lives which were, in the words of John Donne, 'nasty, brutish and short'. After all, as an atheist, you must surely admit that morality is simply an arbitrary construction and evolution determines the survival of the fittest.

You give us your take on the rights of native peoples. But, hang on - where did your own lifestyle, not to mention the computers (and other modern technology) you love so much, as well as all the wonders of modern science which enrich our lives, emerge from? From Judeo-Christian European civilisation which spread its gospel of progress and societal advancement (for all its evident flaws and abuses) throughout the rest of the world (and, again, which you benefit from totally) vanquishing Stone Age leftovers. Or perhaps you'd prefer to be living in a draughty teepee with some smelly squabbling squaws as you try to eat your raw buffalo meat with your rotting teeth. (Oops - no dentists in the land of the noble savage!)

Again, we have little to feel guilty about and much to feel proud of, as I'm sure many of the descendents of the original inhabitants (malcontents and drunks apart) living infinitely better lives would agree. As for ski resorts, offer the locals shares in the company behind it and even jobs on site; I'm sure they'd jump at the opportunity and use their totem poles for winter firewood...



Evening Greg
Why should you remove it this is a place to debate our differing views.

It is late here but I will get back to you in a few days as your post deserves a proper rebuttal
The first nations of US and Canada were not cruel or violent they cared deeply for the earth and the animals that sustained them.
Guns, alcohol, drugs, debauchery and violence was brought by our ancestors, we shared our technology.


https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/nat ... n-culture/

https://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/13074 ... 7460872523

I am heading out but will get back to this in a day or so, enjoy your evening Greg.
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Pondero » November 3rd, 2017, 9:02 pm

Sorry to get you involved with Canadian Aboriginal history, Greg. What I scanned through given by Val in a few minutes is a pablum account of their history, leaving out the fighting between tribes, and the taking of prisoners.It gives an idealized account of their very primitive ,nomadic lifestyles.
Maybe ,we are wandering off track here.
Getting back to religion, in no way can belief in the spirit of the great grizzly bear , by the ktunaxa tribe be compared favourably with Christianity and it is ludicrous , and a deliberate falsehood to pretend they can.
If your mind is your brain and your brain is just material , would you rely on it?
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby GregB » November 3rd, 2017, 9:31 pm

(Val:)The first nations of US and Canada were not cruel or violent they cared deeply for the earth and the animals that sustained them.
Guns, alcohol, drugs, debauchery and violence was brought by our ancestors, we shared our technology.

All human beings share the same innate failings, including a tendency to conflict and violence, and idealising the primitive peoples is a fallacy, just as is the myth of a lost idyllic paradisiacal realm of peace and innocence. Before guns there were knives, spears, bows and arrows and, before them, rocks and clubs. Human conflict predates all technological developments and war has been mankind's natural state, with brief interludes of peace, since historical records began, and from well before that according to archaeological finds.

I find the way of life in the links you provided bovine and dreary, little better than the animals they herded. I'd add that I think you've used the wrong words with "cared deeply". They simply got on with the (limited) means at their disposal as best they could, which was basically about survival, not being nature-lovers.

Edit: Pondero's post confirms my point about idealised accounts of these peoples as well as the primitive animalistic nature of their religion.

Correction: It wasn't John Donne who said "life is nasty, brutish and short" (referring to the natural state of mankind) as I quoted in my earlier post but the 17th century political philosopher, Thomas Hobbes.
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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Pondero » April 19th, 2018, 9:36 pm

I don't really know where to put this quote from William Klpatrick, but it certainly sums up some of the stupid things we are expected to believe today.
.


Let’s Pretend!
BY WILLIAM KILPATRICK | APR 8, 2018

Let’s Pretend!
Welcome to fantasyland! No, I’m not talking about Disney World. I’m referring to American society circa 2018. It seems that social elites have divorced themselves from reality and are demanding that the rest of us do likewise.

You’re no doubt familiar with the most egregious examples of “let’s pretend:”

Let’s pretend that unborn babies aren’t really human beings.
Let’s pretend that same-sex “marriage” is a real marriage.
Let’s pretend that girls can become boys and vice versa.
Let’s pretend that there are far more than two genders and you can choose whichever one you like.
All these “let’s pretends” have the force of law behind them, and you can get in trouble if you don’t go along with the pretense. For example, in New York City a heavy fines awaits those who fail to address a co-worker by their preferred pronoun—even though the pronoun has no connection with reality. In short you can be fined for refusing to tell a lie.




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Re: Moral Progress

Postby Sprocket » April 20th, 2018, 12:42 pm

Feeble, self-pitying, labouredly-humourous bollocks.
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