The God Particle

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Re: The God Particle

Postby Sprocket » June 12th, 2013, 12:47 pm

Oh, for heaven's sake! "The God particle" is just someone's silly nickname for it! If you read my link, you'll see that it isn't just statistical probability that it's been found. What they've found also has no spin, which is a property of the Higgs Boson that they predicted in advance, but which no other particle has.
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Pondero » June 12th, 2013, 3:06 pm

Maybe you can explain what having no "spin" means and how it proves that CERN has found the Higgs boson.
Yes I did read the article and it is insufficient on which to make a judgement.
You will have to read more than a BBC journalist article in order to do that.
I am not inclined to look it up at the moment, as I have a blocked eavestrough to clean of leaves which prevents rainwater from running down a downspout :eek:

EDIT. The article I was reading yesterday by about economics professor, "But, so far I don't buy the statistical claims being made about the discovery. Since the claims about the evidence are based on"statistical significance"- that is, on the number of standard deviations by which the observed signal departs from a null hypothesis of " no difference" -the physicists claims are not believable. Statistical Significance is junk science, and it's big piles of nonsense are spoiling the research of more than particles physics.

According to professor Dave Charlton of. Birmingham University. There is no absolute proof of the existence of the Higgs boson (BBC).

If the professor of economics says there is only Statistical Significance (evidence?) of Higgs boson, and Dave Charlton is convinced that Higgs boson has been found, what is his evidence other than statistical significance?
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Sprocket » June 12th, 2013, 4:28 pm

You know perfectly well, or if you don't you should, that there's no "absolute proof" of anything in science.
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Pondero » June 12th, 2013, 5:20 pm

Sprocket wrote:You know perfectly well, or if you don't you should, that there's no "absolute proof" of anything in science.


I am waiting for you to answer my two questions I asked.
One was an explanation of "spin" which you offer as proof of Higgs boson.?
And

Has Dave Charlton any evidence at all other than that based on statistics that almost certainly proves the existence of Higgs boson?

Maybe then we can move forward!
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Sprocket » June 12th, 2013, 7:27 pm

How the hell should I know how they know that the particle they've found has no spin? Am I a physicist? I see no reason for doubting the word of the scientists that that is the case. Do you?
The lack of spin is also the answer to your second question.
Now I repeat my former question to you: do you have some religious reason for rejecting the existence of the Higgs Boson?
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Pondero » June 12th, 2013, 8:21 pm

Sprocket wrote:How the hell should I know how they know that the particle they've found has no spin? Am I a physicist? I see no reason for doubting the word of the scientists that that is the case. Do you?
The lack of spin is also the answer to your second question.
Now I repeat my former question to you: do you have some religious reason for rejecting the existence of the Higgs Boson?

Yes, I do if as seems likely the scientists are using statistical significance to justify their claim.
Now, as I have already said, Stephen T.Ziliak, professor of Economics thinks the statistics are invalid and the Birmingham University professor thinks they are good.
You may say whom do I believe, the word of an economics professor or the Birmingham University professor at CERN.(Dave Charlton) The word of a scientist you will say because it is his area of expertise.Not so in Statistics is it!
Well, both understand statistics very well and the economics professor and another man wrote a book about the misuse of statistics in science and medicine and business, namely the misuse of a 5% probability level that the data would be due to the null hypothesis (if talking about this case) In other words it is 95% probable that the null hypothesis is rejected and the data observed are not due to random chance. Therefore, they erroneously conclude we must have found the Higgs boson.
It could be caused by any number of reasons.

No, I have no religious reason for rejecting the claim as I already pointed out. You still haven't explained what you mean by no spin.
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Sprocket » June 13th, 2013, 12:24 pm

I haven't the faintest idea, as I've already pointed out, how the scientists know there's no spin, because I'm not a scientist. As for what is meant by "no spin", I'd've thought that was obvious: it means that it doesn't spin!
The linked article says that other evidence that it's the H.B. is what it decays into. No, before you ask, I don't know what that means either, because, again, I'm not a scientist. However, there are two reasons, apart from the statistical one, for believing it to be the H.B.
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Pondero » June 13th, 2013, 2:02 pm

The economist called the account of the finding of the H B, junk science, because the claims are based on statistical significance, which proves nothing. The scientist from CERN, does not give reasons at all, which are convincing to the economist. He talks about analysis of data.

I will wait to see the results of analysis of data. It should be interesting.
In science they should be able to duplicate the tests done already, and I am hoping they continue testing to see what else they find.
But, at the moment I don't think they have found the Higgs boson.

These findings meant that as of January 2013, scientists were very sure they had found an unknown particle of mass ~ 125 GeV, and had not been misled by experimental error or a chance result. They were also sure, from initial observations, that the new particle was some kind of boson. The behaviours and properties of the particle, so far as examined since July 2012, also seemed quite close to the behaviours expected of a Higgs boson. Even so, it could still have been a Higgs boson or some other unknown boson, since future tests could show behaviours that do not match a Higgs boson, so as of December 2012 CERN still only stated that the new particle was "consistent with" the Higgs boson,[17][18] and scientists did not yet positively say it was the Higgs boson.[129] Despite this, in late 2012, widespread media reports announced (incorrectly) that a Higgs boson had been confirmed during the year.[135]


In January 2013, CERN director-general Rolf-Dieter Heuer stated that based on data analysis to date, an answer could be possible 'towards' mid-2013,[136] and the deputy chair of physics at Brookhaven National Laboratory stated in February 2013 that a "definitive" answer might require "another few years" after the collider's 2015 restart.[137] In early March 2013, CERN Research Director Sergio Bertolucci stated that confirming spin-0 was the major remaining requirement to determine whether the particle is at least some kind of Higgs boson.[138].

(Wikipedia)
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
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Re: The God Particle

Postby greenjack » June 26th, 2013, 10:58 am

Hello folks
Just making my annual appearance :)
Hope all are well.
Just thought I'd share the following with you & prob "see" you all next year :lol2:

"The Higgs Boson enters a church loudly proclaiming that the "God Particle has arrived!"

The priest, angered at the particle's arrogance orders the particle to leave.

The particle responds "But without me, you can't have mass
"

:wave:
Cheers
GJ
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Re: The God Particle

Postby Sprocket » June 26th, 2013, 12:54 pm

:roll: ( :D )
Nice 2CU, 2CU nice.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
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