Religious Persecution in Canada

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Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 10:46 am

As a pre-amble to this thread: my view is that persecution of religion does not necessarily have to result in death as it does in Third World countries where Muslims are persecuting Christians to the death. In Ontario the government takes away the freedom to practice religion in schools, and the freedom to speak out on religious issues gradually, step by step. This is religious persecution.

I have cancelled the contents of my pen-ultimate post on this topic and transferred it here.


Pondero wrote:My wife has faxed a letter to the Cardinal and I have mailed a letter of complaint about him to the Catholic Register. I doubt if they will publish it.


They did publish it, together with eleven other letters all equally critical.The editor of this week's Catholic Register wrote:
"But Bill-13 has had at least one positive outcome. It has energized Catholics and rekindled appreciation for Catholic education in Ontario. We have been flooded like never before with letters from frustrated, saddened and angry readers. Therefore, this week's Catholic Register editorial is abbreviated to allow more of our readers to speak out on this heavy-handed new law. "
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Val » June 15th, 2012, 4:33 pm

I am sure that you have complete freedom to practise your religion in Canada Pondy and that goes for your schools as well, what you might not be able to do is discriminate against other groups or try to prevent them from forming alliances and naming these as gay-straight alliances or any other name that describes them.

Surely there are more serious issues for the church to address, you may be aware that Ireland is hosting the 50th International Eucharist Congress at the moment but on the opening day less than 50% of the seats were taken and over the last few days that hasn’t improved , Cardinal Sean Brady – Primate of All Ireland was also absent he is under server pressure to resign over his handling of an investigation into clerical sexual abuse of children but he refuses to listen to his bishops who have advised him to go quietly, also the Vatican has imposed bans of writing and public speaking on a number of priests whom they see as dissidents but most of these just want the truth to be made public and more enquiries into the churches handling of child sex abuse, but the Vatican only highlights areas of the ordination of women and married men and mandatory celibacy for priests as reasons for their censure.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
John Stuart Mill

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 4:43 pm

If anyone can stir the pot without studying the facts of the case it is you Val :twisted: Right now I have to leave shortly to help old people in wheelchairs chairs go to an Eucharistic service (they can only get a priest to say Mass once a month).This is at the government retirement home.
So, later on after doing that and taking my thousands of spare cash out of the bank to last us big spenders through the weekend- I'll reply :grin:
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 8:40 pm

Val wrote:I am sure that you have complete freedom to practise your religion in Canada Pondy and that goes for your schools as well, what you might not be able to do is discriminate against other groups or try to prevent them from forming alliances and naming these as gay-straight alliances or any other name that describes them..



You are right we can't under Bill 13 prevent students picking any name for this club that they want, or to prevent them having a club in the first place. It would be outside the control of the Separate School Board and be in a Catholic School. That doesn't make any sense as it would be after hours and requires supervision. In other words the inmates are running the asylum, students are discussing what they want about homosexuality in a Catholic school, things which would be opposed to Catholic teaching. In other words Catholic schools would not be allowed to teach Catholicism,in all its fullness as the students can contradict this with impunity, and invite gay-activists to their GSAs..
That is religious discrimination. It is the thin edge of the wedge.
The way the press has portrayed the situation is that it is about bullying, when it really isn't at all.Policies are in place against all types of bullying in Catholic schools already. What it really is about is a foothold in the schools by homosexual activists who will teach that homosexual activity is normal.

The ordinary public thinks.., and I heard this one in McDonalds in Peterborough a week ago from a customer talking to his companion. It was to the effect that because Catholic schools are receiving public money, they should be privatized and there should be only one school system. I did say to my wife in a loud voice upon hearing this conversation .Surely our property taxes pay for Catholic education in Canada. ( I pay property taxes on two properties in Ontario and I mark them Separate not Public to assure myself that the large educational portion of this property tax goes to Catholic Schools. The people who mark their property taxes Public assure themselves that their educational portion goes to their public schools too.) So,we each pay our own way, Catholic and Public.**

There is a lot of conflct today about the rights of Catholics to have Catholic schools at all, unless they are private ones. But, Catholic schools are guarantied by the British North America Act of 1867, Now renamed the Constitution Act of 1982. Section 29,of the Constitution Act reads.
nothing in this Charter abrogates or derogates from any rights and privileges guarantied by or under the Constitution of Canada in respect of denominational, separate or dissentient schools
In the past every case that has ended up in the Supreme Court of Canada has encountered the same barrier since 1867 (Fr. Carl Matthews SJ) and it is this.
"In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following provision.... Nothing in any law shall prejudicially affect any right or privilege with respect to the denominational Schools which any class of persons have by law in the Province at the Union"

Mr. MCGuinty is on a sticky wicket if a constitutional challenge to this law is undertaken (Section 93 of the British North America Act). He is bullying our Cardinal Collins at present. And I have written about this in the Catholic Press by letter. More on this later but not now.

** Catholic means Separate and Public means Protestant and all others. In the beginning in Quebec the Separate schools were all Catholic. There was one exception and that was in Ottawa, Ontario ( the capital) and that was that the Separate board was originally Protestant, ( that has changed now over many years. I remember reading about this in a book when I undertook teacher training in 1969)
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Sprocket » June 15th, 2012, 9:40 pm

I've googled this Bill 13, and it is pretty much as you say - it allows for the setting up of anti-homophobic bullying societies in any school, and allows for them to be called Gay-Straight Alliances if that's what the students want. I googled because I thought there must be more to it than that for you and other Canadian Catholics to be kicking up such a fuss, but apparently not. What exactly do you have against anti-bullying alliances? Frankly, when people are dying for their religion or lack of religion in parts of the world, I think it is in very bad taste for you to describe this commendable bill as 'religious persecution', just because you don't like the name "Gay" for homosexuals, which appears to be all there is to your objection. Shame on you.
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 9:52 pm

Sprocket wrote:I've googled this Bill 13, and it is pretty much as you say - it allows for the setting up of anti-homophobic bullying societies in any school, and allows for them to be called Gay-Straight Alliances if that's what the students want. I googled because I thought there must be more to it than that for you and other Canadian Catholics to be kicking up such a fuss, but apparently not. What exactly do you have against anti-bullying alliances? Frankly, when people are dying for their religion or lack of religion in parts of the world, I think it is in very bad taste for you to describe this commendable bill as 'religious persecution', just because you don't like the name "Gay" for homosexuals, which appears to be all there is to your objection. Shame on you.

I have written a lot about it and it has been a waste of time as non-catholics like you have difficulty understanding why so many of us are so upset.We are not all suffering from a psychological disorder or a mass delusion. I suppose it boils down to the reasons why when confronted by the same truths some accept it as true and some don't.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Lyn » June 15th, 2012, 10:05 pm

It sounds to me that Catholicism can be taught in Catholic schools but Catholic students at the schools are allowed to talk about and debate anything, including inviting speakers of their choice. That seems fair to me. That happens here.

In any case, there are issues other than homosexuality which I would have considered more important.
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 10:24 pm

Victoria Plum wrote:It sounds to me that Catholicism can be taught in Catholic schools but Catholic students at the schools are allowed to talk about and debate anything, including inviting speakers of their choice. That seems fair to me. That happens here.

That is quite right Victoria, and that it is precisely my point in my previous post. When confronted by the same truth some accept it and some reject it.That is why to allow GSAs is so wrong, as it goes against the purpose of a Catholic school, which is to teach a Catholic way of life.And that does not include teaching that sinful acts are no longer sinful to students in Catholic schools, by activists who have free rein not subject to contradiction to teach that sin is OK. It isn't.
To add to this:
GSAs are not in the control of the Catholic school. If it was a discussion of homosexuality in religion class, the Catholic viewpoint would be brought forward as the correct, the true one. An activist would teach something contrary to Catholic belief.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Lyn » June 15th, 2012, 10:53 pm

Should the Catholic students be permitted to challenge and bring their own evidence, Pondy? Even if they don't invite speakers. Or do you think the Catholic pov on this particular issue should just be taught and swallowed, without any challenge?
As a teenager in a Catholic school we were taught that homosexuality was a mental illness and anyone who tried to say otherwise would have been given detention, or worse.
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Re: Religious Persecution in Canada

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2012, 11:15 pm

Victoria Plum wrote:Should the Catholic students be permitted to challenge and bring their own evidence, Pondy? Even if they don't invite speakers. Or do you think the Catholic pov on this particular issue should just be taught and swallowed, without any challenge?
As a teenager in a Catholic school we were taught that homosexuality was a mental illness and anyone who tried to say otherwise would have been given detention, or worse.

The Catholic viewpoints must be taught as the truth, which it is to people of faith.
We are moving off the topic with your question which is a general question referring to all Catholic students. GSAs are for those students with homosexual inclinations and that is what we are discussing in this thread.
Even so I will attempt to answer your all inclusive question. The question that could arise is why did God make me this way, when it is obvious that if one was heterosexual things could be much simpler. One could marry someone of the opposite sex and perhaps have children. Something which is not possible within a homosexual relationship. If this was brought up in religion class, then it could be explained that these homosexuals are called to chastity.It is the same basic question that anyone could ask in religion class, such as why are some people born paraplegic,and why are there others who suffer a great deal.There is one thing to remember about the Catholic meaning of suffering, and that is that God brings good out of evil.Other things to remember are that God will not let you suffer more than you can bear.These matters can be discussed with an informed Catholic teacher .And Yes, of course you can bring forward your own evidence as you put it. Catholic truth has nothing to fear from any source.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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