Islamist watch

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Islamist watch

Postby GregB » July 12th, 2012, 1:38 pm

I'm starting this thread as a means of recording and commenting on the steady, alarming, seemingly inexorable spread of fanatical Islamism. We've already witnessed the failure of the so-called 'Arab Spring' to produce anything like the kind of liberal democracies which so many observers pinned their hopes on a mere eighteen months ago. Egypt now has an elected president from the Muslim Brotherhood, the ultra-fundamentalist Islamic organisation whose declared aim is the re-establishment of the Muslim Caliphate and the eventual Islamisation of the world.*

However, in this opening post, I wish to draw attention to the barbaric nature of the ultra-Islamists with respect to works of art which they regard as 'pagan' and which they claim must be destroyed. Several years ago in Afghanistan, Islamist extremists from the Taliban blew up the unique huge statues of the Buddha carved into a mountainside. In the West-African state of Mali, the northern part of the country has been taken over by an Islamist sect allied to the Al-Qaeda of the Maghreb (ie. North Africa) and they are now setting about destroying the shrines in Timbuctu declared patrimony of humanity by UNESCO, though the West is impotent to stop this savagery. Now, to cap that, the Salafists in Egypt (they are the even more extreme fundamentalist Islamists, to the right - as it were - of the Muslim Brotherhood and have a large number of seats in the new parliament) are calling for the demolition of the pyramids of Giza as representing a pre-Islamic pagan culture. One wonders what might be next on the list...

[* Though, unfortunately, many Western observers, starting with the Fool on Capitol Hill, seem to have a rather rosier picture of the Brotherhood, completely overlooking the time-honoured Islamic technique of Taqqiya, or lying in defence of the faith and its extension. Such blind irresponsibility, not to say naivety, has its price, though.]
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby Lyn » July 12th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Play another tune Greg.
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby GregB » July 12th, 2012, 6:58 pm

I'm dealing with established facts, Vix, and a growing menace which I think it's worth drawing attention to, as do a lot of serious well-informed observers in the media. Everything that I'll post here* and what I've posted elsewhere is not hearsay, it's reality. If people choose to ignore or try to deny that, that's their prerogative, but it's not going to make the problem or the dangers go away. If you disagree with some of the things said (proven facts apart, that is), I'm quite happy to discuss them, but please don't just dismissively tell me to "play another tune". Such a serious and timely subject deserves better than that, however you personally may feel about it.

[* Of course, if this thread is met with indifference or hostility, I won't press it - I'm not obsessive about dead horses. But as Raymond Ibrahim - an Egyptian Coptic Christian who knows at first hand what Islamist fanaticism is about and whose chilling reports of Muslim persecution of Christians I post every month in Talking Stick - has pointed out, most people in our society are totally unaware of what is happening, largely due to scant mainstream media reporting. George Orwell, another seasoned observer of fanatical extremism in action, said in his epilogue to his book about the Spanish Civil War, 'Homage To Catalonia', that the woefully complacent English people don't stir themselves in response to a threat until the bombs start falling in their own back yards.]
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby patjoseph » July 13th, 2012, 6:38 am

As Vix said Greg, play another tune, we have as much to fear from far right anti islamists.......Anders Brevik anyone?
Fanatics everwhere, your obsession borders on racism, are you a racist Greg?
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby GregB » July 13th, 2012, 7:56 am

patjoseph wrote:As Vix said Greg, play another tune, we have as much to fear from far right anti islamists.......Anders Brevik anyone?
Fanatics everwhere, your obsession borders on racism, are you a racist Greg?

Oh dear, here we go again... :roll:

Let's see, if you really do believe that far right fanatics, fragmented into relatively small groups in different countries with little influence on affairs other than street thuggery, pose the same threat or danger, or worse, as the frighteningly growing numbers of Islamists who seek to impose strict Sharia law wherever they take control - and they are taking control of more and more countries - then I really do have to say that you don't have a very clear idea of what is actually happening. As for the psychopath Breivik, he was a one-off murderous lunatic who represents nobody but himself and his own delirium and who has nothing to do with those serious journalists, scholars and commentators who seek to alert us to the very real threat of Islamist expansion.

As I keep trying to insist, PJ, I am dealing in facts, not xenophobic bluster. For example, what I said in my OP is all factual - Egypt now has an Islamist president from an organisation whose declared aim is to impose Sharia law wherever it gains power as well as a parliament dominated by it along with the more fundamentalist Salafists while the destruction of those shrines in Mali by Islamist fanatics is a fact.

Obsession? No, more like concern for what those whose heads are not buried firmly in the sand perceive as a very real threat to our society. Were those who warned against the growing menace of fascism in the 1930's obsessive fanatics? (Whatever the differences in the details, the fact is that fascism and Islamism both constitute totalitarian ideologies which are intolerant of, and violently persecute, any opposition to them.) I see nothing wrong in alerting people to the dangers and if, in the end, the threat proves to have been exaggerated, then there is no harm done. After all, I'm hardly advocating violent action nor twisting the facts and to lump me with those thugs, like the EDL, who do is frankly insulting.

To conclude, no I'm not a racist, PJ. I detest racism, in fact. In any event, though, you're making some kind of category mistake here. Opposing Islamism is not opposing any particular race as it is a religious ideology which embraces many different races, so charges of racism are unfounded.

By the way, PJ, do you (or Vix) ever read those monthly reports I post by Raymond Ibrahim on Muslim persecution of Christians which are all factually corroborated and chilling in their extent?

(I think I've tried to be reasonable in this post, without resorting to inflammatory remarks, cheap jibes or anything approaching offensiveness. Would it be too much to ask that any response be made in the same spirit?)
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby Sprocket » July 13th, 2012, 8:37 am

Nutters like Breivik the English Defence League and nutters like jihadists and Islamists are alike to be resisted. Most Muslims are peaceful types, though whether they or the nutters have the truest interpretation of their religion is a moot point, but there are enough extremists to be worrying, and we need to avoid ignoring the real dangers in the interest of civic harmony. Trouble is, in the days when communists and fascists were the main threat to democracy and peace, it was ok roundly to condemn them and all their works, because that's politics, but, because Islam is a religion, we tend ot be wary of doing so.
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby Lyn » July 13th, 2012, 9:38 am

Greg: By the way, PJ, do you (or Vix) ever read those monthly reports I post by Raymond Ibrahim on Muslim persecution of Christians which are all factually corroborated and chilling in their extent?

Yes, read them all.
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby GregB » July 13th, 2012, 10:31 am

That's good, Vix. And I do hope my last two posts have made my position and my motives on all this clearer, as well as making clear the unfairness of PJ's comments.

Thanks for those observations, Steve. Good point about Islam being a religion and therefore claiming immunity from criticism, unlike recent straightforwardly political ideologies. Many scholars point out that Islam is, in fact, fundamentally a kind of political ideology of the 7th. century Arab Empire which was spread by the sword and which developed a religious 'coating' as all major powers and empires in the past needed and had some kind of religious underpinning or other to justify their expansionism, Islam as a religion being a kind of hybrid of Judaism and Christianity. Of course, the religious element took on a life of its own (though it never experienced a reformation, like Judaism and Christianity did) but the rising Islamists and Jihadists of today have assumed the original mantle of conquest and imposition of the strictest form of Islamic law, pure theocracy where the law of Allah is the law of the community (the 'Ummah' - in the final analysis, fundamentalist Islam does not recognize individual states but rather the whole community of the faithful, Dar Al-Islam or the House of Islam, and Dar Al-Harb, the House of War, or the rest of the world which must be brought into submission in Dar Al-Islam.)
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby Bev » July 13th, 2012, 5:22 pm

GregB wrote:I'm starting this thread as a means of recording and commenting on the steady, alarming, seemingly inexorable spread of fanatical Islamism. We've already witnessed the failure of the so-called 'Arab Spring' to produce anything like the kind of liberal democracies which so many observers pinned their hopes on a mere eighteen months ago. Egypt now has an elected president from the Muslim Brotherhood, the ultra-fundamentalist Islamic organisation whose declared aim is the re-establishment of the Muslim Caliphate and the eventual Islamisation of the world.*

However, in this opening post, I wish to draw attention to the barbaric nature of the ultra-Islamists with respect to works of art which they regard as 'pagan' and which they claim must be destroyed. Several years ago in Afghanistan, Islamist extremists from the Taliban blew up the unique huge statues of the Buddha carved into a mountainside. In the West-African state of Mali, the northern part of the country has been taken over by an Islamist sect allied to the Al-Qaeda of the Maghreb (ie. North Africa) and they are now setting about destroying the shrines in Timbuctu declared patrimony of humanity by UNESCO, though the West is impotent to stop this savagery. Now, to cap that, the Salafists in Egypt (they are the even more extreme fundamentalist Islamists, to the right - as it were - of the Muslim Brotherhood and have a large number of seats in the new parliament) are calling for the demolition of the pyramids of Giza as representing a pre-Islamic pagan culture. One wonders what might be next on the list...

[* Though, unfortunately, many Western observers, starting with the Fool on Capitol Hill, seem to have a rather rosier picture of the Brotherhood, completely overlooking the time-honoured Islamic technique of Taqqiya, or lying in defence of the faith and its extension. Such blind irresponsibility, not to say naivety, has its price, though.]


Interesting that those "shrines" you mentioned are Mali mosques. (Scratching head at Islamic extremists destroying mosques--seems to me this is a good indication that not all muslims are extremists.)

I'm holding out hope that the muslim victims of these muslim extremists will join with the rest of the peaceful muslims and non-muslims and end up comprising a much larger majority so that the extremists can pitch their fits, even do some major damage, but in the end have no more hope of taking over than there being a one-world-monarchy. **

** Speaking of...doesn't Bible prophecy indicate there will end up a one-world-monarchy, and that it won't be a good thing for any follower of Christ? What about that?
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Re: Islamist watch

Postby GregB » July 13th, 2012, 7:21 pm

Interesting that those "shrines" you mentioned are Mali mosques. (Scratching head at Islamic extremists destroying mosques--seems to me this is a good indication that not all muslims are extremists.)

The shrines (without inverted commas) in question are inside mosques built to house them and it is the shrines, or tombs, of Sufi* saints of around five hundred years ago which are primarily being destroyed as the extremists believe they violate the strict Islamic rules of tomb construction and should be demolished. It should be noted that local Muslims who venerate the Sufi saints and their tombs were impotent in the face of the onslaught and were unable to prevent it.

It is certain that not all Muslims are extremists, just as not all Germans, for example, were Nazis, though that did not prevent World War Two or the Holocaust from taking place. It is the violent men who generally call the shots at watershed moments of history, not the more passive members of society. Gandhi preached non-violence and was assassinated by a Hindu extremist for his trouble, which was soon followed by massive communal violence and bloodshed with deaths in the millions.
I'm holding out hope that the muslim victims of these muslim extremists will join with the rest of the peaceful muslims and non-muslims and end up comprising a much larger majority so that the extremists can pitch their fits, even do some major damage, but in the end have no more hope of taking over than there being a one-world-monarchy

Which Muslim "victims" are you referring to? Most of the victims of Islamist fanatics are non-Muslims. In any event, there is no way such a coalition of Muslim 'peaceniks' is going to come about and there is no indication whatsoever of any such movement even starting to take place anywhere. It's good to hope for some things but when they are totally unrealistic and do not conform to anything in the real world, it's rather fanciful, not to say futile.

One thing - do bear in mind that the kind of educated, moderate Muslims you might encounter over there are a small minority and by no means representative of the vast majority of Muslims in Muslim lands who are mostly compliant when it comes to imposing Sharia law and though they may not all be out-and-out jihadists, they will certainly be Islamic supremacists of one shade or another. After all, it's built into the religion itself, whatever smooth-talking imams in Western societies may say otherwise.
** Speaking of...doesn't Bible prophecy indicate there will end up a one-world-monarchy, and that it won't be a good thing for any follower of Christ? What about that?

Where is that in scripture, Bev? As one who has closely studied Bible prophecy for years, I'm not aware of any such prophecy.

[* The Sufis were a mystical sect of Islam.]
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