Muslims in Our Midst

For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity.
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For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity. Christians and members of any faith or of no faith are welcome, provided they treat others with respect at all times. Remember that detailed discussion about the beliefs of a particular faith will be difficult if no member of that faith is available to take part.

Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Lyn » August 26th, 2016, 11:38 am

Or not white? Who knows.
Same goes for the aboriginal people of Australia, who call themselves "Tribal".
They were treated shamefully, families broken up, children adopted out to white people because that was considered to be civilising. Their land was taken but they had no concept of ownership of land, believing they sprang from the land (some truth in that I think), so were easily duped.

The New Zealand Maori are regarded differently, thank goodness.
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Pondero » August 26th, 2016, 9:58 pm

From what I saw of Aborigines in Australia and Maoris in New Zealand, they seem to be integrated into society far more than our First Nations people are.
Here, they want more and more federal aid, and yet what do they do with it, it goes in many cases to tribal elders who are very rich. The majority live in filth and squalor on Northern reserves,frozen up most of the year. All Tribes are not like that , but most are in my view. The feds cannot interfere without cries of First Nations rights which maintains the status quo.
The problem is the same as it was when I arrived here in 1957.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Pondero » June 15th, 2017, 5:42 pm

What Islam really teaches.

Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." Koran 2:191

"Make war on the infidels living in your neighbourhood." Koran 9:123

"When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them." Koran 9:5

"Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable." Koran 3:85

"The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them."... Koran 9:30

"Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" Koran 5:33

"Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies." Koran 22:19

"The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them." Koran 8:65

"Muslims must not take the infidels as friends." Koran 3:28

"Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an." Koran 8:12

"Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels." Koran 8:60
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Sprocket » June 15th, 2017, 9:49 pm

I assume you've copied and pasted that, rather than read all of the Koran. I'm sure the wuotes are genuine, and I don't like Islam much either, but context is all.
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby GregB » June 16th, 2017, 8:00 am

The context is the entire Koran itself, which is replete with such commands to Muhammed's followers and is quite consistent with the means by which Islam was spread from its inception and through the centuries; ie. by the sword, by war, by conquest and violent subjugation. Some try to tar Christianity with the same brush, but whatever abuses have been spuriously committed in the name of Christianity, there is not a single verse in the New Testament authorising violence. On the contrary, Christ said, "Love your enemies", "Turn the other cheek", etc. etc. and when the apostle Peter drew his sword and struck off the ear of the Temple servant, Jesus rebuked him and immediately healed the servant, who had come to arrest him.

Other Koranic texts say things like, "Strike the necks of the unbelievers...cast terror into their hearts" (Sura 8:12), which is exactly what Islamist jihadis are doing.

As for why most Muslims don't do that, that is another question which can be pursued further, if necessary.
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Pondero » June 16th, 2017, 12:06 pm

To answer Sprocket's question.No I haven't read all the Koran, but as it consists of 'one liners' it is not out of context.I read more than one article about the Koran, and they all say the same thing.I have also printed out whole sections of the Koran.
As Greg points out.Muslims conquered by the sword.
Thank God that many Muslim workers cannot read, say in Indonesia where they have a great concentration of Muslims, and so do not know the contents of their so called "Holy Book."
The same will apply to recent Muslim immigrants to Europe and North America, they are not all University students.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Theophilus » June 16th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Some of the quotes above are slightly out of context, in that some are only partial verses, but on the issue of "context" in general: the Qu'ran is made up of Chapters (Sura) which are roughly ordered from longest to shortest. So they're already out of context. Unlike the Bible which is a mixture of histories, prophecies, poetry and letters, the Qu'ran is believed to be the literal word of God, so each verse that reads as a command is meant to be taken as literal command for all time. There's no possibility of contextualization of time and place as in the case of Joshua and the commandments given therein. When the Qu'ran talks about "killing unbelievers" as a commandment, it means it as much now as when it was first written down.

One way to interpret the Qu'ran is to use the Hadith - the sayings and life of Mohammad - to ascertain the chronological order of each Sura and abrogate the older ones where there are contradictions. The problem with this method is that to accept the Hadiths as authoritative is to accept the sources where there's really unambiguous nasty stuff, such as Mohammad's explicit war-mongering, murder, polygamy and paedophilia.

As mentioned above by Greg and Pondero, the actions of Muslims throughout history shows that the killing or enslavement of non-Muslims is a legitimate (if not 100% universal) interpretation of the Qu'ran and Mohammad's way of life.
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby sarniajoy » June 28th, 2017, 10:57 am

Islam is coming to the fore these days because of the appalling crimes committed by Muslim extremists. :twisted: However we must not forget that Christianity has been responsible for appalling crimes too in times past, especially the RCC! :shock: Extremist Christians who try to force their unpleasant twisted dogma on others, using threats as some do, bring the whole faith into disrepute, just as ISIS does for Islam.
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby Sprocket » June 28th, 2017, 11:41 am

When did you last hear of a Christian, however extreme, blowing up a theatre full of children and adolescents?
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Re: Muslims in Our Midst

Postby GregB » June 28th, 2017, 11:45 am

Indeed.

Moreover, comparing the centuries-long cruel, unending violence of Islam with the mostly psychological abuses within certain Christian formations is so wrong headed and absurd as to be laughable, not to mention the clear objective fact that it has no basis in real history and merely reflects your own wholly woolly subjective, but totally insubstantial and flawed, outlook on the world.

I should add that the core text of Christianity, the New Testament, doesn't have a single verse authorising violence against opponents whereas the Qu'ran is full of them. However, as your opinions are based on nothing more than random unresearched blather from the occasionally fired-up synapses of your brain without any objective basis (presumably your husband, an academic with two degrees, would see the problem with that) I think we can safely dismiss them.
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