Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 18th, 2015, 4:03 pm

Sprocket wrote:Freedom to do something must imply the freedom not to do it, otherwise it's compulsion.


Therein lies the difference between true freedom and licentiousness, which you cannot find in Pondero's posts. Freedom is the choice and ability to do what we want and not do what we don't; licentiousness is a type of compulsion, where a person cannot stop doing something, even if it goes against societal norms, or even their own conscience. Licentiousness can appear like freedom when someone is doing what they want despite the protests of other people, but is revealed as a tyranny when that same person tries not to do the same thing and realize they cannot. Christianity recognizes such things as passions -- sins so ingrained that they are habit: they become our "second nature" according to St John Chrysostom. Causing offense by saying/writing deliberately provocative things can certainly be seen as a passion - and therefore licentiousness rather than true freedom; on the Internet they are known colloquially as "trolls". Already recognized in Christianity as a passion, I am sure in time modern psychology will catch up and recognize trolling as a compulsion, rather than free-expression.

Are the journalists of Charlie Hebdo suffering from a compulsion to offend? Some probably are and some probably are not.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 18th, 2015, 7:08 pm

Theophilus wrote:
Sprocket wrote:Freedom to do something must imply the freedom not to do it, otherwise it's compulsion.


Therein lies the difference between true freedom and licentiousness, which you cannot find in Pondero's posts. Freedom is the choice and ability to do what we want and not do what we don't; licentiousness is a type of compulsion, where a person cannot stop doing something, even if it goes against societal norms, or even their own conscience. Licentiousness can appear like freedom when someone is doing what they want despite the protests of other people, but is revealed as a tyranny when that same person tries not to do the same thing and realize they cannot. Christianity recognizes such things as passions -- sins so ingrained that they are habit: they become our "second nature" according to St John Chrysostom. Causing offense by saying/writing deliberately provocative things can certainly be seen as a passion - and therefore licentiousness rather than true freedom; on the Internet they are known colloquially as "trolls". Already recognized in Christianity as a passion, I am sure in time modern psychology will catch up and recognize trolling as a compulsion, rather than free-expression.

Are the journalists of Charlie Hebdo suffering from a compulsion to offend? Some probably are and some probably are not.
Completely missing the point. Firstly, I'm pretty sure that that's not what Pondero meant; and secondly, I was talking about external xompulsion. I don't think anyone is internally compelled to be offensive, at least not on Charlie Hebdo. Internally compelled to come up with a smart-arse answer to every post on a forum - now that's a different matter.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 18th, 2015, 7:34 pm

Sprocket wrote:Completely missing the point. Firstly, I'm pretty sure that that's not what Pondero meant;


I think you are missing the point, which was made by SotS. Pondero will let us know what he meant, but I doubt it will be how you characterized it.

Sprocket wrote:and secondly, I was talking about external xompulsion.


You were replying to others, though, who almost certainly were talking about freedom in terms of self-control as well as freedom from external compulsion. After all, you're pretending that because Pondero hasn't explicitly defined "licence" (i.e. licentiousness) that there isn't a difference between it and freedom; however, there is, and it relates to the lack of moral restraint, which indicates a lack of control, and therefore freedom. It is also true that many times when "freedom of expression" is mentioned in modern times, it refers specifically to licentiousness, and therefore to this pseudo-freedom that requires lack of (self) control.

Sprocket wrote: I don't think anyone is internally compelled to be offensive,


You haven't been to some of the darker places on the Internet. Good for you.

Sprocket wrote: Internally compelled to come up with a smart-arse answer to every post on a forum - now that's a different matter.


Well, maybe, but that would only prove my point :) ... it is a related compulsion. You will know of it, as you've admitted yourself to occasional postings that you know/hope will wind people up. I admit I have done this too, though this post isn't one of them.
Last edited by Theophilus on January 18th, 2015, 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 18th, 2015, 7:44 pm

Please leave my name out of this discussion....thank you!..

Surely, it should be possible to discuss the difference between, freedom and license without mentioning what Pondero meant or did not mean by the words.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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