Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

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For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity. Christians and members of any faith or of no faith are welcome, provided they treat others with respect at all times. Remember that detailed discussion about the beliefs of a particular faith will be difficult if no member of that faith is available to take part.

Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 15th, 2015, 2:54 pm

Yes, although I would say there are huge swathes of middle gorund between being driven to murderous hatred against someone who draws blasphemous and deliberately offensive cartoons, and identifying oneself with the someone who draws blasphemous and deliberately offensive cartoons. Just as clear a divide exists between the actions of all Christians who were offended by images in Charlie Hebdo (nothing in 'retaliation') and the actions of some Muslims who were offended by other images (arson a few years ago; muder last week).
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 15th, 2015, 3:02 pm

Definitely true, Theo.

I believe we shouldn't be offended by anyone who mocks what is truly good, because the mockery is clearly stemmed in complete ignorance (which I believe is how Jesus must have seen those who crucified him.)
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 15th, 2015, 3:58 pm

different glory wrote:I agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, Pondy, but I don't agree that cartoons (or whatever) mocking popes or nuns are, strictly speaking, blasphemous. Blasphemy is against God, and popes and nuns are not God. The cartoons (etc) may be rude, shameful, even disgusting (I haven't looked!) but still not, strictly speaking, blasphemous.
There's plenty of art (etc) around which is, of course, and more's the pity.


The Pope represents Jesus on earth , so I disagree with you on that point. He is head of the Roman Catholic Church, and should be treated with respect.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Lyn » January 15th, 2015, 6:13 pm

I agree as long as he behaves himself. Nothing wrong with criticism and questions. From what I have read, the current Pope seems to be shaping up well. Some of the previous have been reported as saying untold rubbish - not that you can always believe what you read, take it with a pinch of salt. Francis seems good.

So is Welby, the AofC, and he is very knowledgable about West African matters, eg Boko Haram, having lived and worked there. Not afraid to say what he believes either - but I haven't read anything negative about him.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 15th, 2015, 8:09 pm

I like Francis very much. It would be interesting to see if the magazine of subject here would mock him. I suspect no, but only because this Pope seems to be the epitome of compassion and gentleness.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Lyn » January 15th, 2015, 9:36 pm

Frankly I don't think he'd care but he is at least around to print refute if he felt like it. Some Catholics would be hurt by it so what is the point of it.

I can think of Catholic things that people have misunderstood and mocked:
Immaculate Conception - which actually refers to the Virgin Mary who is, according to Catholic doctrine, the Immaculate Conception. Many confuse the title with the virgin birth of Christ.
Bodily ascension of the Virgin Mary.
Transubstantiation.
"Confession", which is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Mortal sin, venial sin etc (though I do believe some sins are worse than others).
Canonisation of saints; by all means honour people who deserve it, Maximillian Kolbe comes to mind, but there is no need to spend so much time and money and try to prove miracles in order to venerate them.
Divorce and re-marriage when we all know some relationships have a shelf life regardless of how hard the couple try.

I'm not saying I believe in them all, particularly the first two, but I wouldn't dream of offending a Catholic by mocking. I would ask questions at the right time and in the right place and have done. Then I'd leave it alone. If I like someone I like them, don't care what they believe.

For all Christians:
Christ being the Son of God, therefore God.
Biblical literalism.
Anti-abortion in all circumstances, even rape or if the mother might die.
Attitudes towards homosexuality.
Divorce - that varies according to the type of non-Catholic.

I feel the same way about Muslims and am dismayed that so many have become radicalised. It wasn't like that years ago. I'd still treat Muslims with the same respect as I do other Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Zoroastrians. Why mock and offend? It's childish.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 15th, 2015, 10:22 pm

Victoria Plum wrote:I'm not saying I believe in them all, particularly the first two, but I wouldn't dream of offending a Catholic by mocking. I would ask questions at the right time and in the right place and have done. Then I'd leave it alone. If I like someone I like them, don't care what they believe.


One of our friends, who is a dual resident (France/USA) said not too long ago that France is particularly anti religion, mostly Catholicism and Islam. The reason, he said, was that most believe these two religions have the worst reputations for inflicting pain and suffering on the unbelieving masses. (With Catholicism, he referred mainly to the close ties the Church had with corrupt leaders, especially during Revolutionary times in the late 1700s.)

At one point, he said, the French government attempted to ban the practice of all religions, but the attempt eventually failed.

I'm not saying this is Charlie Hebdo's reason for mocking religion, but it makes sense that this particular publication would be so popular in France.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 15th, 2015, 10:32 pm

But it's not popular in France.... it's recent sales figures have been inflated entirely by the back-firing of Islamic terrorism. Charlie Hebdo normally only prints (that's print, not sells) 60,000 copies -- a tiny figure.

The anti-Catholicism does go back to the French Revolution as your friend says. Many clergy were strung up or executed in other ways when the Revolutionaries came to power. This anti-clericalism is part of the culture that has informed the journalists of Charlie Hebdo.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 15th, 2015, 10:33 pm

Theophilus wrote:
Bev wrote:I also agree with Sprocket. Any faith that is affected by the mocking of unbelievers is of no value at all.


Sprocket didn't say that, though.

Possibly not, but I agree with it.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 15th, 2015, 10:35 pm

What, that anyone who is affected in any way by having their faith mocked has a faith of "no value"? Harsh.
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