Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity.
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For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity. Christians and members of any faith or of no faith are welcome, provided they treat others with respect at all times. Remember that detailed discussion about the beliefs of a particular faith will be difficult if no member of that faith is available to take part.

Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 15th, 2015, 10:39 pm

Bev didn't say that. She said "any faith...", not "any person..."
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 15th, 2015, 11:51 pm

Depends whether you take "faith" to mean the beliefs and values held by an individual or "a religion". It can mean both but in this instance I thought the former was meant, as it came within the context of Pondero (an individual) talking about how he was offended by the mocking of the religion he belonged to. The Christian faith received by the Apostles is not affected by mockery, or flattery for that matter, but definitely a Christian's personal faith can be affected by regular mockery from the outside. It is not worthless because of that, although it is better to have enough dispassion and love for the other not to become even briefly angry over it. Nevertheless, despite whether individually we are affected by mockery or not, the true comparison comes in how Christians respond to such mockery (non-violent) compared to at least some Muslims.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 16th, 2015, 2:14 am

Theophilus wrote: but definitely a Christian's personal faith can be affected by regular mockery from the outside.


Why ever for? Especially, when those from the "outside" have never had the same experience. Again, I have to refer to Jesus' great ending, when he asked God to forgive those who had so cruelly mocked him. Why is this any different?
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 16th, 2015, 8:02 am

Furthermore, one is only aware of Charlie Hebdo's mockery if one chooses to read it.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 16th, 2015, 10:42 am

Jesus said from the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do.".

He would not have forgiven them if they had known what they were doing, and we're unrepentant.
God doesn't forgive unrepentant sinners.
As for being offended or not offended, that depends on the offence, and how grave is the offending.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby different glory » January 16th, 2015, 10:45 am

:shock: So many different issues. I don't think it's ever right to be offensive purely "for fun"; I can see that it is sometimes both right and important to use humour and criticism in a just cause, even if it might offend. Obviously people's faith is one thing you should be really really careful about being offensive about. (Not the only thing, though.) I think Bev's impressively robust about not caring what other people think, but Bev, there are those weaker in the faith, and better were it that a millstone etc. Mockery, and constant jibing can cause people's faith to crumple. :(
There! did I cover all the bases?

(Also: I thought it might be worth offering this link to a French, left-wing view of things, to shed some light on French secularism/anticlericalism, and Charlie Hebdo. It was written, though, more to British lefties who might think the mag too much of a rag to be worth supporting, on grounds of racism,rather than religion-bashing.)
That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works. - Psalm 26
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 16th, 2015, 11:08 am

I have read as much of it as I want to dg, the Frenchman in the UK is surprised and shocked. Now there is a similarity between being shocked and offended which he undoubtedly is. His comments about France, are his own. I don't share his pride in Voltaire, as for Diderot, I can't remember anything about him - was he a mathematician?. In any case no doubt a philosopher.

I like France and the wife said she would like to visit France this year. I love The Louvre and the Notre Dame, ,(I believe it is).
To return to the Frenchman. There is no glory in sitting on the fence in religious matters. You cannot approve of and disaprove of Catholicism at one and the same time, and approve of atheistic thought, and offensive repulsive cartoons challenging all and everything. That is the mark of a man who accepts everything in the name of 'libertie' and believes in nothing.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 16th, 2015, 11:20 am

Bev wrote:
Theophilus wrote: but definitely a Christian's personal faith can be affected by regular mockery from the outside.


Why ever for?


I'm talking about human exprience and psychology. What about if your children were mocked (not to their face, but to yours) in an unjust way? No twitch or movement of the heart (regardless of your reaction or response)? That's ridiculous -- psychotic even.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 16th, 2015, 3:42 pm

Theophilus wrote:
Bev wrote:
Theophilus wrote: but definitely a Christian's personal faith can be affected by regular mockery from the outside.


Why ever for?


I'm talking about human exprience and psychology. What about if your children were mocked (not to their face, but to yours) in an unjust way? No twitch or movement of the heart (regardless of your reaction or response)? That's ridiculous -- psychotic even.


I'm glad you asked this question, Theo. My parents were wonderful about encouraging us to disregard mockery or ridicule. There's something incredibly empowering about having your parents support you in disregarding criticism. Such truly casts a poor and insignificant light on a bully or mocker. We raised our sons the same way, and not one was bullied. Recently, though, our oldest grandson was telling me about a boy in school who has been picking on him. I told him that there was one power and right a bully can never take from you, and that is your right to completely and unequivocally ignore them. I then told him that when a bully sees that his taunts truly do not bother you, it takes his power away. When I told him that, he smiled, and I believed he saw for the first time just how much control he really does have over the matter.

There's no greater way to completely deflate the power of bullies than to easily disregard them.

As to DG's concern about people of weak faith, I have to say that the same applies. Strong Christians should always rally around the weak ones and encourage them. And I would encourage them the same way I did my grandson by telling them that the best weapon we have is to disregard anything that does not edify and strengthen us.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 16th, 2015, 3:57 pm

Just saw this and thought most appropriate for this thread, especially for those who criticize Charlie Hebdo for mocking religious leaders:

A founding editor of Charlie Hebdo emotionally criticizes slain editor Stephane Charbonnier for "dragging their staff to their deaths."
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