Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

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For discussions about religion, but not specifically Christianity. Christians and members of any faith or of no faith are welcome, provided they treat others with respect at all times. Remember that detailed discussion about the beliefs of a particular faith will be difficult if no member of that faith is available to take part.

Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 16th, 2015, 4:01 pm

The discussion went off topic at a tangent over the definition of ”Blasphemy". Some say it is related only to the person of God.But, my dictionary extends it to relating to holy things. Now things could be material things or persons. If persons I would include not just the Pope, Christ's representative on earth and leader and successor to St.Peter, but to those who lead consecrated lives.

Now, that was the point I wanted to make clear. I did not say I was offended. People are reading into more what was written than intended.

I believe people have a right to be offended about an attack on their religious beliefs. It doesn't show a weak faith, but on the contrary, a strong one.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 16th, 2015, 4:48 pm

Au contraire Bev, comme les français disent. (to use my five years of High School french)
When I was a little boy I learned that you fight a bully you don't let him hit you without retaliating. I was chased down the street by Bobby Walsh and tried to run past the garden gate of our house, 18 The Grove, East Ardsley, Wakefield. West Yorkshire,(it is still there and looks good on Google earth :grin: ) when my Dad who was home on leave ( a sergeant in the 2nd parachute regiment ) grabbed me and made me fight Bobby Walsh. Eventually Dad stopped the fight when my head was being banged against the pavement.

I had no further trouble nor was I bullied again.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 16th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Pondero wrote:Au contraire Bev, comme les français disent. (to use my five years of High School french)
When I was a little boy I learned that you fight a bully you don't let him hit you without retaliating. I was chased down the street by Bobby Walsh and tried to run past the garden gate of our house, 18 The Grove, East Ardsley, Wakefield. West Yorkshire,(it is still there and looks good on Google earth :grin: ) when my Dad who was home on leave ( a sergeant in the 2nd parachute regiment ) grabbed me and made me fight Bobby Walsh. Eventually Dad stopped the fight when my head was being banged against the pavement.

I had no further trouble nor was I bullied again.


What you're describing is different, Pondero. Mockery pokes fun with words, and in the case of Charlie Hebdo, images. They never threatened violence upon another in any way.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Pondero » January 16th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Yes it is different, but you used the example of how you taught your son not to be bullied and I described my own boyhood experiences.

Charlie Hebdo you say never threatened violence against others, maybe so.However, the world would' be a better place without their kind of 'literature' and cartoons.
That kind of publication would not be allowed in Canada. I can see it coming under our legislation about "hate crime". Also, the verbal attacks on persons would no doubt be challenged under our human rights code.
I believe in the USA you can say what you want with impunity. We Canadians can't and I like it that way.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 16th, 2015, 10:01 pm

Bev wrote:
Theophilus wrote:
I'm talking about human exprience and psychology. What about if your children were mocked (not to their face, but to yours) in an unjust way? No twitch or movement of the heart (regardless of your reaction or response)? That's ridiculous -- psychotic even.


I'm glad you asked this question, Theo. My parents were wonderful about encouraging us to disregard mockery or ridicule. There's something incredibly empowering about having your parents support you in disregarding criticism. Such truly casts a poor and insignificant light on a bully or mocker. We raised our sons the same way, and not one was bullied. Recently, though, our oldest grandson was telling me about a boy in school who has been picking on him. I told him that there was one power and right a bully can never take from you, and that is your right to completely and unequivocally ignore them. I then told him that when a bully sees that his taunts truly do not bother you, it takes his power away. When I told him that, he smiled, and I believed he saw for the first time just how much control he really does have over the matter.

There's no greater way to completely deflate the power of bullies than to easily disregard them.


The question of whether someone outwardly reacts to provocation is different to how they might be affected internally. You are talking about empowering people, whereas before you were describing such people as having a faith of no value whatsoever. This is a public forum, after all, and describing anyone who might be affected by mockery of Christ (which is widespread and not easy to avoid completely) as having a worthless faith might not be particularly "empowering" for them.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Bev » January 16th, 2015, 10:31 pm

We might have different definitions of faith, Theo. I do believe if someone's faith is effected by something unbelievers say (or even do), then it should be examined.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Theophilus » January 16th, 2015, 10:36 pm

By themselves, surely. It's not our business, unless help/advice is specifically requested, or if we have a particularly close relationship with them and pick up on it.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby SwordOfTheSpirit » January 18th, 2015, 3:40 pm

Pondero wrote:There is a difference in Christian theology between freedom and license, and Charlie Hebdo often transgressed to the latter.License should not be tolerated. ...
Sprocket wrote:This distinction of yours between freedom and licence, which you bring up at regular intervals, seems to boil down to no more than that freedom is what you like; licence is what you don't like.

Pondero has already responded, but I believe he is right to bring it up at regular intervals.

Secular philosophy only understands freedom in the affirmative, i.e. to do something. Therefore it sees not being able to do something as a lack of freedom. True freedom in a spiritual sense also includes the right not to do something. As such, it requires one to see a bigger picture (here, avoiding the totally unnecessary need to cause offence) and regulates one's behaviour. In that way, Charlie Hebdo will be demonstrating true freedom!
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 18th, 2015, 3:41 pm

Deleted.
Last edited by Sprocket on January 18th, 2015, 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Je ne sais pas Charlie Hebdo

Postby Sprocket » January 18th, 2015, 3:43 pm

SwordOfTheSpirit wrote:
Pondero wrote:There is a difference in Christian theology between freedom and license, and Charlie Hebdo often transgressed to the latter.License should not be tolerated. ...
Sprocket wrote:This distinction of yours between freedom and licence, which you bring up at regular intervals, seems to boil down to no more than that freedom is what you like; licence is what you don't like.

Pondero has already responded, but I believe he is right to bring it up at regular intervals.

Secular philosophy only understands freedom in the affirmative, i.e. to do something. Therefore it sees not being able to do something as a lack of freedom. True freedom in a spiritual sense also includes the right not to do something. As such, it requires one to see a bigger picture (here, avoiding the totally unnecessary need to cause offence) and regulates one's behaviour. In that way, Charlie Hebdo will be demonstrating true freedom!

What a load of half-arsed bollocks. Freedom to do something must imply the freedom not to do it, otherwise it's compulsion.
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