Any JWs on St Thads?

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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Sweet Peace » January 8th, 2008, 2:02 am

Amen.
I've had positive connection with JW's. When I was in hospital in '89/'90 having a third of my lung removed it was the culmination of 15 years of refusing to have an operation until it was almost too late and the bleeding from eroded lung vessels or arteries was approaching terminal. The disease I had was called actinomycosis but although I was forced to have xrays every year or so because of the possibility it may have been tuberculosis, there was never a proper diagnosis given.
Anyway my point being that it was my choice to refuse medical treatment and I can understand and appreciate that it is a person's right. When I used to take my children to the dental clinic I was treated like a child abuser for not allowing my children to have their teeth painted with flouride though I think in time I will be vindicated in avoiding flouride.
Getting back to when I had my op, I shared a room with a JW woman and at her prompting read the Bible for the first time in decades. After that (and I'm sure co-incidentally) a JW couple used to visit from time to time and I think the story of the passionfruit vine they gave me is worth telling. I'd planted it with due care but it died and from the compost I'd planted it in came another passionfruit vine. I'm thankful for the part they played in bringing me back to God.
Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby GregB » January 8th, 2008, 6:53 am

Val wrote:
Gregs outburst doesn't warrant a reply but I feel sorry for him and his closed mind, anyways

I see a lot of anger in greg's and your post Pat I think you both should lighten up a little and look for the good in your fellow Christians no matter their denomination, life is just too short

I wouldn't say my feelings about the Watchtower Society are the product of a closed mind, Val; more the natural reaction to a false religion which has hoodwinked so many decent folk. If you read nothing else (though there is a wealth of objective material on the Internet), read the book 'Crisis Of Conscience' by ex-Governing Body member and nephew of the former president, Raymond Franz, a testimony which would open anyone's eyes to the true nature of the JW organisation (regrettably the JW's themselves are forbidden to read it as Franz is considered an 'apostate' - pots and kettles...) Another fine exposé is James Fenton's 'Apocalypse Delayed', a history of the organisation with special emphasis on all its failed predictions and constant changes (the real church is built on a firm rock, not shifting sands.)

As for Sweet Peace's post, I've never denied that there are some fine people within the ranks of the JW's - I've known several myself. Some of them, thank God, see the light and leave, such as a friend of mine here who was for many years a Circuit Servant in the JW's and is now the pastor of a Protestant church in Barcelona. Others, sadly, leave disillusioned and never join a church, their minds poisoned against authentic Christian teachings by the WT Society.

I'm afraid that there are many testified cases of children of JW's who were allowed to die for want of a transfusion because of their parents' beliefs. Another sickening example of their false teachings which have had a terrible effect on people's lives was the Governing Body's ban on organ and eye transplants during the 70's, a policy which they later reversed, but only after many JW's had died for want of a replacement organ or had gone blind for want of an eye transplant. I wonder how the bereaved relatives and the blind members felt about that.

Finally, I'm afraid I cannot regard the JW's as another Christian denomination (nor, indeed, as Christians per se, despite their spurious claims to be so) so your comments in that respect aren't applicable, Val. I will always look for good (and find it) in individual members, but I will never cease to criticise this organisation and its false prophets who have deceived so many people over the years (often, and more terribly, unwittingly.)
"The wiles of dissembling fate afford us the illusion of freedom, yet in the end always lead us into the same trap."
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Sweet Peace » January 8th, 2008, 7:56 am

I do acknowledge that there are what I would call false teachings in the JW's. The same with Mormons -my daughter is a member and after reading 'One Nation Under Gods' I am convinced they are deceived. Mind you, no offence to our Roman Catholic friends but I'm not in agreement with some of their teachings, and on other threads recently there have been denouncements of several protestant teachers. Is there a perfect church?
I would love to know how to approach discussing with my daughter what I find false in the LDS but it seems likely that if I were to push onto her my opinions she might cut off contact with me. Actually I've just found a site defending the Mormons against that particular book so I'll have a look at what they say.
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Sprocket » January 8th, 2008, 10:31 am

I disagree with many aspects of RC teaching too, but the differences are that Catholics are right on the essentials of the faith, however unhelpful I think some of their additions to it are; they are very active in practical Christian care, and not just to their fellow-Catholics; and they do not cause unnecessary suffering and death through a completely unjustified ban on a simple medical procedure. (It may well be true , as Val says, that whole-blood transfusions are rarely necessary to save life, but they are sometimes: he cites leukaemia, which is not a particularly rare disease. In any case, while many may not save life, they do speed up recovery and reduce suffering.)
Having said, that, I must say that my next-door neighbours are JWs: they are very good neighbours and likable people.
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Val » January 8th, 2008, 11:08 am

GregB wrote:
Val wrote:
Gregs outburst doesn't warrant a reply but I feel sorry for him and his closed mind, anyways

I see a lot of anger in greg's and your post Pat I think you both should lighten up a little and look for the good in your fellow Christians no matter their denomination, life is just too short

I wouldn't say my feelings about the Watchtower Society are the product of a closed mind, Val; more the natural reaction to a false religion which has hoodwinked so many decent folk. If you read nothing else (though there is a wealth of objective material on the Internet), read the book 'Crisis Of Conscience' by ex-Governing Body member and nephew of the former president, Raymond Franz, a testimony which would open anyone's eyes to the true nature of the JW organisation (regrettably the JW's themselves are forbidden to read it as Franz is considered an 'apostate' - pots and kettles...) Another fine exposé is James Fenton's 'Apocalypse Delayed', a history of the organisation with special emphasis on all its failed predictions and constant changes (the real church is built on a firm rock, not shifting sands.)

As for Sweet Peace's post, I've never denied that there are some fine people within the ranks of the JW's - I've known several myself. Some of them, thank God, see the light and leave, such as a friend of mine here who was for many years a Circuit Servant in the JW's and is now the pastor of a Protestant church in Barcelona. Others, sadly, leave disillusioned and never join a church, their minds poisoned against authentic Christian teachings by the WT Society.

I'm afraid that there are many testified cases of children of JW's who were allowed to die for want of a transfusion because of their parents' beliefs. Another sickening example of their false teachings which have had a terrible effect on people's lives was the Governing Body's ban on organ and eye transplants during the 70's, a policy which they later reversed, but only after many JW's had died for want of a replacement organ or had gone blind for want of an eye transplant. I wonder how the bereaved relatives and the blind members felt about that.

Finally, I'm afraid I cannot regard the JW's as another Christian denomination (nor, indeed, as Christians per se, despite their spurious claims to be so) so your comments in that respect aren't applicable, Val. I will always look for good (and find it) in individual members, but I will never cease to criticise this organisation and its false prophets who have deceived so many people over the years (often, and more terribly, unwittingly.)



Greg
I have read some of Franz book some time back when I thought I was interested in the JW religion but found it hard going … a bit boring actually Plus I have read many testimonies of other witnesses who have left for a whole variety of reasons I also have few friends who have left the organisation, some of these have gone quietly but 2 others feel very strongly about the organisation and have actively started to oppose the JW’s

JW’s over the years have had many predictions that have miserably failed . so what! The bible itself has failed in its many predictions
I am sure that some children have died because their parents refused to allow blood transfusions but these parents claim to be just following their bible command
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Leviticus 17:1 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
You mention eye transplants in the 70’s; the first eye transplant I can find happened in Russian in 2000 but then you are just making it up as you go along aren’t you?

You say that you cannot regard JW’s as Christian well that’s up to you but I would ask what is your own denomination? And I wonder how many other self proclaimed Christian groups would agree that you are a Christian

All Christian denominations stem from the texts of the New Testament but these are so ambiguous that we now have some 9.000 species of Christian all claiming to have the truth ‘whatever that is’
You and the faith you follow just make up a small part of that, you either inherited your faith or for some reason decided it was the one for you depending on what you were looking for at the time

Religion is a funny old thing, somewhere in the world today 2 innocent children are born into a loving homes, Child 1 will learn from his parent’s and in school and through this interaction he will develop into a god-fearing man of great principles, with great faith in his creator, likewise Child 2 will also learn from his parents peers and schools he also will grow up with strong faith and a great love of his creator, but at some time in the future either of these god-fearing men may try and kill the other because he is the wrong religion, maybe Muslim or Catholic or Protestant either way they know they are right and are just doing the will of God
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby GregB » January 8th, 2008, 1:01 pm

JW’s over the years have had many predictions that have miserably failed . so what! The bible itself has failed in its many predictions

They claim to be the unique organisation that God is using on earth in these 'last days' (which supposedly began in 1914) so you would expect their teachings, predictions included, to be consistent and unchanging given the importance they place on their privileged role. You would, in fact, not expect God to entrust something as vital as his revelations for the last days to an organisation which kept changing its teachings and kept making false predictions (the scandalous 1975 one had many JW's leaving the organisation in disgust, though the newer ones know little of the history). This is to mock God, and the Bible itself makes it clear that God is not mocked. Moreover, how can you expect people to take their claims to be the 'only channel of God's truth' (their words) seriously after so many changes and failed predictions, especially if our eternal destiny depends on such things.

They always trot out Proverbs 4:18 when 'new light' is thrown on a teaching which is then changed, but as the context makes clear (they are pastmasters at wrenching a text out of context), this has nothing at all to do with gradual revelation (which, again, you would not expect from God's unique organisation and its urgent message) it is, rather, simply comparing the way and destiny of the righteous with the unrighteous.

I'd be interested to know which predictions you think the Bible got wrong, by the way.

You say that you cannot regard JW’s as Christian well that’s up to you but I would ask what is your own denomination? And I wonder how many other self proclaimed Christian groups would agree that you are a Christian

I attend a Baptist church, but I would feel just as much at home in an Anglican church, a Methodist church (both of which I attended at different times when I lived in England) or any of the other mainstream Christian churches and denominations. I wouldn't feel out of place in a Catholic church or an Orthodox church (which I'm strongly drawn to), either, but the moment you come up against the JW's, you realise they're on another planet in Christian terms and there is no way one can have any fellow-feeling with them (of course, as you well know, all Christian denominations, without exception, and all other religions, are branded as false religions by them and destined for destruction at Armageddon, along with their members. Nice prospect for the more than 6 billion people who are not JW's.) Christians of most denominations regard them as a sect.

The Biblical texts supposedly supporting their teachings on blood transfusions deserve separate consideration, In some other moment, perhaps...
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Theophilus » January 8th, 2008, 3:42 pm

With regards to the charitable giving of the JWs, I decided to cross myself and venture onto their website myself to have a look. On the homepage there is the quote:

Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need.—Matthew 5:3

which rather predicts what the answer might be regarding material poverty (it also sets the tone for the webpage in many other ways, being a rather strained translation of Matthew).

I had a bit of a search around to eventually find this page:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060501/article_02.htm

which exhorts us to show "concern" for the poor. It gives a number of examples of how Christ and His disciples helped the materially poor before subtly shifting context here:

True Christians today also recognize that followers of Jesus must show concern for the poor and needy, especially among fellow believers. (Galatians 6:10)

before giving examples of JW charitable works. It begins with a case in Brazil from 1998, which is hardly recent; indeed, the article is dated as being posted on 2006 (looking at the url). Of course, it's not about boasting, but given that the watchtower decided to give an example of their own charitable work in the first place, they might as well have picked something more up to date. Moving on, the second example is simply a case of the congregation helping one of their own - admirable enough - but hardly worthy in anyway: even the heathens will feed on of their own, to paraphrase our Lord.

I probably looked all this up because I happened to be reading "Down and out in Paris and London" by Orwell. In London, Orwell makes frequent trips to various churches who give out free food and tea to the vagrants in exchange for them having to listen to some sermon or other. All of these churches are, at best, tolerated for the seemingly grudging way they give out food; even the Salvation Army's system is criticized. Most of it is accepted by the tramps - of course, their starving - though during the service of one church the tramps behave in an outright disrespectful way; Orwell describing the church:

"It was an evangelical church, gaunt and wilfully ugly, with texts about blood and fire blazoned on the walls, and a hymn-book containing twelve hundred and fifty-one hymns; reading some of the hymns, I concluded that the book would do as it stood for an anthology of bad verse."

This is contrasted with one clergyman who regularly gave out mealtickets to the homeless down by the embankment:

He was shy and embarrassed, and did not speak except for a brief good evening; he simply hurried down the line of men, thrusting a ticket upon each, and not waiting to be thanked. The consequence was that, for once, there was genuine gratitude, and everyone said that the clergyman was a **** good feller. Someone (in his hearing, I believe) called out: 'Well, HE'LL never be a ****ing bishop!' -- this, of course, intended as a warm compliment.

Anyway, that's going off the point somewhat.
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Val » October 13th, 2016, 11:07 am

My, how we argued back in the day, I hardly recognise myself.

But its comforting to know that Greg and myself have a long standing love affair :twisted:
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby GregB » October 13th, 2016, 12:13 pm

Val wrote:My, how we argued back in the day, I hardly recognise myself.

But its comforting to know that Greg and myself have a long standing love affair :twisted:


You know, Val, sometimes I'm beside myself - my favourite position!

And eight years is a long time to keep standing... :blink:

The JW's are on the road to extinction, but I'm quite willing to revive the debate, poor buggers.
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Re: Any JWs on St Thads?

Postby Lyn » October 22nd, 2016, 3:06 pm

I'm reading this thread as if for the first time, had forgotten about it until the other day.

What has shocked me the most is the description, by SP, of her lung problem and subsequent op, I had no idea she had been through so much. Glad to see you are still around, SP. You certainly have a compassionate attitude towards JWs and, like most of us, I have nothing against any of them personally but I dislike their doctrine. They also discourage further and higher education in their members though there are exceptions; they are not the only religious group to adopt that attitude. However, that's their business. Yes, they door-knock but are invariably polite and won't linger if you are not interested. They also believe, as someone above said, in taking care of their own first, eg if there is a disaster, famine or whatever, but after that they will reach out to others. In the Bible we are told we get no Brownie points for taking care of our own, "Even the heathen do that", but the implication is that we automatically look after our own first - charity begins at home, etc. So I do not criticise JWs for doing just that unless they actively disregard anyone else in need.

There must be something about all of the well known groups on the fringes of Christianity, that attracts people who have not grown up with them. The LDS are the same as far as that goes. I don't understand it, fascinating though it all is. It could be belonging to a group of what seem to be really nice people, and being accepted, which is important to many. I'd have to ask someone who joined them as an adult.
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