Right to die case can proceed

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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Pondero » March 14th, 2012, 11:22 am

Victoria Plum wrote:I am not Sprocket but I think assisted suicide is when a person with all their faculties decides to die but needs a bit of help to do so. Euthanasia is putting someone down because others think it is the right thing to do.
Interesting discussion on Premier Debate Forum atm about infanticide which is, of course, euthanasia of new born babies.

There appears to be a Venn diagram of two intersecting circles between Suicide and Euthanasia. One circle is of suicide and the opposite circle is Euthanasia. Where they intersect is both Euthanasia and assisted suicide.

The reason that CBC news and the UK liberal left thinking types wish to see a difference between assisted suicide and euthanasia, is to further the quest to legalize assisted suicide and perish the thought that
a person could ever be killed against his will. So lets concentrate on assisted suicide folks, and pretend it is not euthanasia under a different name. The public are easily duped if we do that. That shall be our strategy.
Let nothing disturb you.
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All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
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God alone suffices.

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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Lyn » March 14th, 2012, 2:42 pm

I don't think UK lefty liberal thinking types have anything to do with this Pondy. Stop having a bee in your bonnet, it is stinging in the wrong place! I am against euthanasia and assisted suicide but if I was into party politics, that wouldn't come into it. Whenever I have had a conversation with anyone about such things, their party politics are not relevant, it's just a gut reaction (usually, "If that were me, I wouldn't want to live", type of thing).
So we have - euthanasia with or without the patient's consent.
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Pondero » March 14th, 2012, 5:51 pm

My point is that there is no difference between euthanasia and assisted suicide. Both are done by someone else to kill the patient at his request. No matter who does it, the result is the same.
In other words assisted suicide is euthanasia.

Some people don't like using the word euthanasia, as it conjures up unpleasant images to the mind. Assisted suicide sounds so much nicer.
If you have euthanasia without the patient's consent then it shouldn't be called euthanasia. It is incorrect to call it that.It is plain murder.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Lyn » March 14th, 2012, 6:00 pm

Fair points. I suppose using the term, "Assisted suicide", is being more precise.
I agree that euthanasia is murder though there may be extenuating circumstances, eg on a battlefield where there is no hope of medical intervention and a wounded person could die a lingering, horrible death. That is an extreme case of course, most of us will never have to face such a decision.
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Sprocket » March 16th, 2012, 9:55 am

Victoria Plum wrote:I am not Sprocket but I think assisted suicide is when a person with all their faculties decides to die but needs a bit of help to do so. Euthanasia is putting someone down because others think it is the right thing to do.
Interesting discussion on Premier Debate Forum atm about infanticide which is, of course, euthanasia of new born babies.

No. It's always voluntary on the part of the person, but the difference is a matter of who performs the final act. For example, if a Doctor sets up an intravenous drip containing a lethal drug, but the person who wants to die starts it running by operating a switch, that's assisted suicide, but if the Doctor injects the drug into the person's bloodstream, without them doing anything, that's euthanasia. Killing people without their consent is not euthanasia properly so-called. The Nazi mass- murder of the mentally handicapped is often cited by the anti-choice lobby, but that was not euthanasia, though that's what the Nazis euphemistically called it.
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Pondero » March 17th, 2012, 11:15 pm

It is euthanasia no matter what. Assisted suicide is euthanasia,because some doctor or other sets it up for him so that he can kill himself.
Suicide is against the law.These people need help and support in their emoțional difficulties. Paliative care for the dying should be encouraged, and I hope that the judgement of the Court in this case is to refuse his request.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Lyn » March 18th, 2012, 2:22 am

I agree though I would say that anyone at the end of their tether, who can no longer bear to see a loved one suffering, should be treated with compassion. That happens already. Please God it never happens to any of us.
DNR, no life prolonging drugs, intense medication (even if it results in unconsciousness), and lots of TLC in a loving atmosphere is what is needed. My f-i-law died in a hospice and received all of that, he was free from pain, God rest him. I will always support the hospice movement. We have one near us that deals with children. They don't all die there, some spend time there while their parents have respite and they mix with other sick and disabled children, enjoying being the same as everyone else. We can learn a lot from children.
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby GregB » March 18th, 2012, 8:21 am

I'm afraid I go against the grain of church teaching (including my own, a traditionalist Spanish Protestant church) on this question. I believe an individual should have the right to terminate their life (or have it terminated) if they so wish, and when they wish, and as long as they demonstrate lucidity and rationality in their thinking. I think the possibility of abuses (eg. relatives forcing a person to acquiesce to their demise) is greatly exaggerated, as if there were hordes of unscrupulous people out there just waiting to have someone in their family out of the way, and, in any case, safeguards could be established which would only be abused or side-stepped in a minority of cases. I believe a person has the right to die with dignity and not be subject to the pitiful grisly suffering such as that being endured by the poor man whose case provoked this current debate. (How the devil must gleefully laugh at God's creatures being reduced to such a ghastly state; he should be cheated of such satisfaction.)

Even if facilities for caring for the terminally ill were in prime condition (which they are far from being, in fact), it's not everyone who would wish to avail themselves of them, myself included. I have no desire to be stuck in some hospice surrounded by bodies in the final stages of corruption and attended by simpering staff (I totally hate to be dependent on anyone and their sympathetic caring would just leave me cold. "Here's your medicine, Gregory." "Shove it up your bloody arse!") This is, to me, a vision of one of the outer circles of hell, a living nightmare. No, if I still had the strength, I would take myself off to a beautiful spot like the one below, where I have spent many happy times, with a bottle of good whisky and a sharp knife with which to slit my wrists when the booze had given me enough Dutch courage to undertake the final act. How good to die with such a wonderful noble vista before one's eyes as the lifeblood drains away into the earth rather than gaze with mind-numbing boredom at the wall of some smelly hospice covered by yet another faded photograph of the Matterhorn...

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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Sprocket » March 18th, 2012, 1:53 pm

I agree with Greg, and would add that the euthanasia-versus-hospice argument always brought up by the antis is a false dichotomy. We could perfectly well have both - hospices to provide care for as long as the dying person wants it, up to death if that's what they want, and euthanasia or assisted suicide for those who've had enough.
Pondy - suicide is illegal? It hasn't been since the early 60s!
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Re: Right to die case can proceed

Postby Val » March 20th, 2012, 4:00 pm

Pondero wrote:It is euthanasia no matter what. Assisted suicide is euthanasia,because some doctor or other sets it up for him so that he can kill himself.
Suicide is against the law.These people need help and support in their emoțional difficulties. Paliative care for the dying should be encouraged, and I hope that the judgement of the Court in this case is to refuse his request.


Euthanasia is the deliberate taking of another human’s life; Voluntary Euthanasia is the same act but with the patients informed consent, Assisted suicide is just that ‘suicide’ but with the assistance of a second party because the patient is paralysed or somehow incapacitated and not able to set up the process but still able to take a tablet, drink or self inject or in some way complete the act by their own hand so to speak.

We can and in fact are bound by law to alleviate pain and suffering in our animal friends and we end their lives when their suffering becomes unbearable, how then should we be asked to treat our loved ones differently because they are human and allow them to rot and die slowly and agonisingly day by meaningless day and claim that it is better for them or that it the will of their god, what loving god would demand such a thing.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke
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