EU Referendum

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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Sprocket » June 24th, 2017, 8:21 pm

Theophilus wrote:I'm not asking why the difference in your statement last year compared to your views now - lying is par for the course for the hardcore EU-philes.

I strongly object to being accused of lying. When you apologise, I will answer the rest of your post.
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby sarniajoy » June 25th, 2017, 7:49 am

Brexit is looking to be more and more of a disaster for the UK. I suspect even the rabid leavers will live to regret it.
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Pondero » June 25th, 2017, 9:16 pm

Sarniajoy wrote:Brexit is looking to be more and more of a disaster for the UK. I suspect even the rabid leavers will live to regret it.

Most or all of the Brexit supporters I know personally :grin: (that is, a brother and an old school friend) want the control of the British immigration policy to be in the hands of Britain not the EU. ( They believe that diverse backgrounds are to!erated whereas multiculturalism where immigrants do not have to learn English ,and cluster together in ghettos where their lives are not integrated into British social mores, and they live exactly as they lived in the old-country should never be tolerated .)
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Sprocket » June 26th, 2017, 2:07 am

Pondero wrote:( They believe that diverse backgrounds are to!erated whereas multiculturalism where immigrants do not have to learn English ,and cluster together in ghettos where their lives are not integrated into British social mores, and they live exactly as they lived in the old-country should never be tolerated .)

They don't live "exactly as they lived in the old country". Polygamy and female genital mutilation are both illegal in this country, to give but two examples, and all people are encouraged to learn English. One reason that I am opposed to faith schools and home schooling is that both encourage ghettoisation. Children need to experience other cultures and beliefs. (I don't want to ban either outright, because that would be undemocratic, but I'd like to see them subject to much more stringent regulations, and faith schools deprived od state funding unless they have a fully open admissions policy, in which case, their raison d'etre as a faith school seems to have disappeared.)
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Pondero » June 26th, 2017, 2:30 am

Ever heard of Ray Honeyford, the headmaster of a middle school in Bradford? He opposed multi-culturalist educational policies.He supported teaching of English history to the children of the 20% Muslim population of Bradford.Local government policy was opposed to his views which he expressed in the Salisbury Review.Honeyford had to leave his position and retire as his health was declining due to racist attacks he was suffering from in Bradford.
Eg. FromThe Bradford Drummond Support group.

My old school pal from Drighlington (next door to Bradford) took early retirement from the local school where he was head master, and so did some other heads he knew because of policies of the Leeds authorities with which he did not agree.He con tinued on as a teacher in a private Quaker school.In other words he couldn't really afford to retire at the time, but he couldn't stand "the official policies". I spoke to him last week by phone in Leicester, and he talked about how immigrants should learn English for starters.we then discussed my lawn mower and other mundane subjects.
Let nothing disturb you.
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All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby sarniajoy » June 26th, 2017, 7:21 am

Honeyford sounds as if he was a very unpleasant scummy 'little englander'! :evil:
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Pondero » June 26th, 2017, 8:54 am

I'll ignore your stupid comment Sarniajoy.

My old school pal who now lives in Leicester has no computer, and no access to the internet.I wish he did so that we could communicate more often.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby sarniajoy » June 26th, 2017, 10:24 am

Pondero wrote:I'll ignore your stupid comment Sarniajoy.

My old school pal who now lives in Leicester has no computer, and no access to the internet.I wish he did so that we could communicate more often.


You obviously didn't ignore it! :lol:

Britain is a country built on incomers, most of our ancestors weren't born here. Long may that be the case.
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Theophilus » June 26th, 2017, 9:18 pm

Sprocket wrote:They don't live "exactly as they lived in the old country". Polygamy and female genital mutilation are both illegal in this country, to give but two examples...


There is no law against a man living with multiple women, having children by all of them (and claiming child-benefit), and 'marrying' them according to the Islamic custom. An Islamic wedding has no legal standing in the UK, but if anything that just means that the woman has little legal protection - and in any case the legal recognition of a marriage in a Muslim-majority country will not give any extra benefits that cannot be had in the UK under a "common-law" marriage. So, they can live "exactly as they did in the home-country.

As for FGM, there has not been a single successful prosecution of FGM in this country, a "national scandal":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37364079

...so again, it can carry on as it does in the old country.

This is the case for many illegal practices. The principles of "community policing" is that a community police officer does not do anything without the consent of the community itself. Fine in principle, and usually in practice. But with certain communities, particularly Muslim communities*, this simply doesn't work as the community itself is insulated and too resistant to change. So I believe, indeed, most of these practices carry on as in their country of origin (where it is often illegal as well, e.g.. India, but just as unenforceable).

Sprocket wrote:I don't want to ban [faith schools] outright, because that would be undemocratic, but I'd like to see them subject to much more stringent regulations, and faith schools deprived od state funding unless they have a fully open admissions policy, in which case, their raison d'etre as a faith school seems to have disappeared.)


Having a fully open admissions policy does not remove the raison d'etre of a faith school, unless they are cultish in their expression of faith ("protecting" the children from outside influences). For example, many Catholic schools do have an open admissions policy, but still have a curriculum heavy on Roman Catholic teaching. The parents who are not Catholic either have to "like it or lump it", and many are willing to send their children to Catholic schools and be exposed to Catholic doctrine because of the perceived merits of the school.

Unfortunately, an open admissions policy would not work with Muslim faith schools (who, I believe, should legally have an open admissions policy anyway) because non-Muslims simply wouldn't choose to send their children there. Why would they?

---

I notice Ray Honeyford was brought up. Only read about him recently. I was too young to know about the scandal at the time, or how he expressed his opinions, but if he was basically saying that multiculturalism was failing because it was creating non-native, mono-cultural, ghettoes around the UK then I think history has proved him to be right. Even if you agree with the principle of multiculturalism, it cannot be denied that in practice it has not worked, again, particularly with the Muslim community.












*It would be unfair to say SE Asian or Arab, because this never seems to be as much of an issue with Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Chinese, Christian, or Jewish communities. Perhaps there is some insularity with Hasidim, but then they do not normally practice FGM, polygamy or honour killing in the 'old country'.
Last edited by Theophilus on June 26th, 2017, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU Referendum

Postby Theophilus » June 26th, 2017, 9:25 pm

Sarniajoy wrote:
Pondero wrote:I'll ignore your stupid comment Sarniajoy.

My old school pal who now lives in Leicester has no computer, and no access to the internet.I wish he did so that we could communicate more often.


You obviously didn't ignore it! :lol:

Britain is a country built on incomers, most of our ancestors weren't born here. Long may that be the case.


Demonstrably untrue. If you think the sustained immigration figures over the past decade are even vaguely comparable with any other point in British history, at a time when the population density of the country has never been higher, then you are deluded.
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