General election on the way!

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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Sprocket » June 18th, 2017, 4:26 am

Theophilus wrote:
Lyn wrote:Whenever any disaster happens it will become political, the government blamed by the opposition.


Yes, that's another interesting thing.

The UK recently suffered two deliberate terrorist attacks that resulted in the death of innocent people including children. What was the response of the "opposition" and their supporters: don't get angry, don't hate, stay united, carry on as normal.

Less than a month later, an accident claims innocent lives, including children, and what is the response of the same opposition and their supporters? Get angry! Blame the government! Don't carry on as normal! Bring down the government!

Labour could not have criticized those to blame for the terrorist attacks without alienating some of its own core vote (i.e. the Muslim vote): cue calls for less hate and carrying on.
Labour can easily blame "the rich", "the government" etc. for what was an accident and so do so with gleeful abandon. It's no accident that this debate has flared up in the Political forum. Much of the outrage is political confection irresponsibly stoked up and maintained by a party that hopes to force another election and gain power.
In your desperation to find something to damn Labour for, you have completely distorted the facts. The perfectly reasonable reponse of all sides except nutters like EDL to the terrorist incidents was that we must be united against the terrorists, and not blame ordinary, decent Muslims, who are generally peace-loving like the rest of us. The Labour party has not, to my knowledge, stoked up anger against the government after the fire - that (fully justified) anger has been spontaneous (albeit also exploited by some far-left trouble-makers). Jeremy has been calm and statesmanlike, unlike May.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Lyn » June 18th, 2017, 8:29 am

Yes, I am bewildered by Theo's post.

What the Grenfell disaster has in common with the recent terrorists attacks is the terrible loss of life but other than that, there is no comparison.
There's a vast difference between deliberate and accident, the latter most likely caused by sheer carelessness and cost cutting in this time of 'austerity' - an accident waiting to happen - but still no-one intended such a dreadful thing.

Theresa May is out of her depth as PM but she is no doubt as horrified as anyone else, just doesn't know how to handle it.

I'm not actually blaming the government or 'the rich' but will wait and see what is revealed over the next weeks.

(Sprocket, I looked up Momentum before going to bed and believe they are definitely worth supporting. For someone like me, there's no point in joining because I have nothing to offer, I'm not going to attend meetings and do things in groups but can make a donation. It's encouraging to know there are earnest, honest people banding together to effect change.)
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Theophilus » June 18th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Sprocket wrote:The Labour party has not, to my knowledge, stoked up anger against the government after the fire - that (fully justified) anger has been spontaneous (albeit also exploited by some far-left trouble-makers). Jeremy has been calm and statesmanlike, unlike May.


The "far-left" trouble makers are Momentum, which due to its raison d'être as supporters of Jeremy Corbyn is a significant part of the Labour Party. Most Labour MPs, who are still wary of Corbyn and McDonnell's crypto-marxism*, are not stoking up anger against the current government - but Corbyn's supporters (which includes some MPs) and Corbyn himself are certainly exploiting for political gain. You, being a trenchant supporter of Corbyn for some years, obviously fail to see this.

Pondero expressed suspicion that some of the protests against May and the government might be "rent-a-mobs", which you and Lyn utterly rejected. I pointed out some compelling evidence that shows this might not be so fanciful as you imagine. Some of the protestors calling for May to resign were demonstrably assembled using social media, and weren't just displaced locals hanging around.

We can see the effects of this media battle. Greg further up the thread mentioned how Corbyn went to see the locals whereas May did not. This is how the story was presented in certain papers, notably the Mirror, but is in fact not true. Theresa May has not handled the situation well at all, but stories that she did not meet with the victims are simply untrue. Fake news.








*not actually even that hidden, c.a. Corbyn's impractical and grandstanding calls for the requisitioning of millionaire's properties to house those displaced.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Theophilus » June 18th, 2017, 1:23 pm

Lyn wrote:What the Grenfell disaster has in common with the recent terrorists attacks is the terrible loss of life but other than that, there is no comparison.
There's a vast difference between deliberate and accident, the latter most likely caused by sheer carelessness and cost cutting in this time of 'austerity' - an accident waiting to happen - but still no-one intended such a dreadful thing.


Well that's the point. There is a vast difference between deliberate and accident. So why are we encouraged to be angry at the accident, rather than the deliberate act? My comment was not so much to question why there was a different response, but why the responses appear to be the wrong way round.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby sarniajoy » June 18th, 2017, 4:20 pm

May has handled the situation extremely badly, which is no credit to her at all.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Lyn » June 18th, 2017, 4:31 pm

Theophilus wrote:
Lyn wrote:What the Grenfell disaster has in common with the recent terrorists attacks is the terrible loss of life but other than that, there is no comparison.
There's a vast difference between deliberate and accident, the latter most likely caused by sheer carelessness and cost cutting in this time of 'austerity' - an accident waiting to happen - but still no-one intended such a dreadful thing.


Well that's the point. There is a vast difference between deliberate and accident. So why are we encouraged to be angry at the accident, rather than the deliberate act? My comment was not so much to question why there was a different response, but why the responses appear to be the wrong way round.


People were very angry at the terrorist attacks as well as horrified and grief stricken, still are.

The general feeing is thal the accident could have been prevented, indeed concerns about the safety of the building were raised and no-one took any notice. It was as if nobody cared about those living in social housing, many of whom were poor. Not surprising there has been an outcry really.

Sarniajay, Mrs May has apologised for her poor handling of the situation. She really needs to resign now before she's pushed (imo), her party are gunning for her, not just about this. If she goes she'll retain some dignity, she's only human after all. Then everyone can moan about someone else!
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby sarniajoy » June 19th, 2017, 8:18 am

Lyn wrote:
Theophilus wrote:
Lyn wrote:What the Grenfell disaster has in common with the recent terrorists attacks is the terrible loss of life but other than that, there is no comparison.
There's a vast difference between deliberate and accident, the latter most likely caused by sheer carelessness and cost cutting in this time of 'austerity' - an accident waiting to happen - but still no-one intended such a dreadful thing.


Well that's the point. There is a vast difference between deliberate and accident. So why are we encouraged to be angry at the accident, rather than the deliberate act? My comment was not so much to question why there was a different response, but why the responses appear to be the wrong way round.


People were very angry at the terrorist attacks as well as horrified and grief stricken, still are.

The general feeing is thal the accident could have been prevented, indeed concerns about the safety of the building were raised and no-one took any notice. It was as if nobody cared about those living in social housing, many of whom were poor. Not surprising there has been an outcry really.

Sarniajay, Mrs May has apologised for her poor handling of the situation. She really needs to resign now before she's pushed (imo), her party are gunning for her, not just about this. If she goes she'll retain some dignity, she's only human after all. Then everyone can moan about someone else!


TM doesn't come over as genuine! :twisted:
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Lyn » June 19th, 2017, 12:04 pm

I can't judge her on that Sarniajay. People often come over as detached and cold when inside they are churning up. We don't know how she really feels (climbing the walls I would think!).

I am watching the News on TV and just seen Mrs May going to Finsbury Park. The newsreader was talking about the immense pressure she is under.

We all know it is tough at the top but until people are actually in a job, they don't really know what it's like.

Politics aside, I feel for Theresa May as a fellow human being. She has made a mess of a lot of things (which they all do!), but there must be more to the person than that.

I wonder if anyone else watched the programme on BBC2 last night, "Theresa v Boris - The Battle to be PM". It was supposed to be a fairly accurate account of the party leadership elections. What an eye opener! I found myself feeling for all of them. In politics, there are no friends.
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