General election on the way!

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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Sprocket » June 17th, 2017, 2:41 pm

Pondero wrote:I notice that the Queen got a good reception from the former tenants of the burned high-rise apartments, while Mrs May was booed by them, or was it by 'rent a mob' angry protesters? The real suffering tenants, are too busy finding a place to live, clothes to wear and food to eat to be bothered protesting.
That's a huge assumption on your part!
The people to blame for the shoddiness of building materials, cladding which burns easily , are former politicians of all political parties in office in the past.They made the laws at that time.
Mrs.May has only been in office two minutes, p!ease be fair. At least she went out there ! she is not responsible.
Where was Corbyn?
There, meeting with and consoling real people, the survivors and their relatives!
The cladding was applied last year. For only £5,000 more they could have used fireproof cladding. It is this government that imposed austerity, and which has opposed increasing safety standards for buildings.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Sprocket » June 17th, 2017, 2:48 pm

"I'm fucking busy, and vice versa" - Dorothy Parker.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby GregB » June 17th, 2017, 3:19 pm

GregB wrote:In all fairness to Corbyn, he was there soon afterwards, talking to and consoling the survivors of the fire and I don't think it was just political opportunism. However I regard the man in other respects (eg. see my last two posts), I think he is essentially decent and does have concern for others. Theresa May only spoke to the firefighters and the local authorities, but not a single survivor of the fire. This has nothing to do with responsibility for the fire and everything to do with common decency and concern for victims. As I pointed out in a previous post, she came to be regarded as uncaring due to seemingly heartless elements in the (hastily-cobbled together) Tory election manifesto. She may only have been in office for a short time but she has managed the feat of shooting herself in the foot several times already - including calling an early election, which was the height of folly and hubris.

It seems Steve has decided to leave out this acknowledgement of Corbyn's basic decency on my part in favour of homing in on my earlier comments about his character.

As for this nitpicking comment about my concession that May is unfeeling:
"I note your repeated use of phrases such as "came across as" and "seems". If she seems uncaring, unfeeling and scared of meeting real people, is not the most likely reason that she is those things?"
Was it really necessary to be so pedantic when I'm actually criticising your political enemy? And isn't it evident that I implicitly meant that she is those things?
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Sprocket » June 17th, 2017, 4:38 pm

Sorry - I didn't notice that post about Corbyn earlier. Fair enough - you've also pretty trenchantly criticised May, as well.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Lyn » June 17th, 2017, 4:46 pm

I wonder if May is really unfeeling or is it perhaps just her affect? Not everyone shows feeling.
She is certainly out of her depth and ill-advised. On a personal level I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for her and wonder what the next catastrophe will be.

Pondero wrote:I notice that the Queen got a good reception from the former tenants of the burned high-rise apartments, while Mrs May was booed by them, or was it by 'rent a mob' angry protesters? The real suffering tenants, are too busy finding a place to live, clothes to wear and food to eat to be bothered protesting.
The people to blame for the shoddiness of building materials, cladding which burns easily , are former politicians of all political parties in office in the past.They made the laws at that time.
Mrs.May has only been in office two minutes, p!ease be fair. At least she went out there ! she is not responsible.
Where was Corbyn?


An uninformed post if I may say so Pondy.

People are angry, they're not 'rent-a-mob'.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Theophilus » June 17th, 2017, 5:22 pm

So you don't think some of the people in those "protests" are members of political movements (namely Momentum and other pro-Corbyn groups) and are using this tragedy to force May to resign and change the government?

Pondero said:

The real suffering tenants, are too busy finding a place to live, clothes to wear and food to eat to be bothered protesting.


...surely two days after the fire, this is more-or-less true? Do you really think the majority of those protesting are the victims of the fire? In pictures of the protests I've seen, anti-Tory Socialist Worker placards were clearly visible. Who is holding these placards? Where did they get the placards from? There have been UK-wide protests about what has happened. Again, who are these protesters if not politically-motivated agents provocateur who are less interested in "justice" but instead political change?







*Owen Jones, if that is of any interest.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Lyn » June 17th, 2017, 6:21 pm

I said people were angry Theo and not just those who were in the fire.
Non-violent protests are appropriate at this time, imo. "Rent-a-mob" implies a gang of people brought in to cause trouble.

Whenever any disaster happens it will become political, the government blamed by the opposition. It would be the same if we had a Labour government or if something like this happened in a Labour borough (which it did about eight years ago).

It's not Theresa May's fault though, she's only been in power five minutes.

Yes, those who were in the fire are certainly worried about their future and many are grieving. The whole thing is horrific.

Greg's thread entitled "Gratitude" in Daily Chat is spot on.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Theophilus » June 17th, 2017, 8:22 pm

Lyn wrote:I said people were angry Theo and not just those who were in the fire.
Non-violent protests are appropriate at this time, imo. "Rent-a-mob" implies a gang of people brought in to cause trouble.


Yes, there are people who are angry, but when they are carrying Socialist Worker branded placards and the anger is directed towards the Tories in particular and call for "bringing down the government", then the "rent-a-mob" descriptor is not unreasonable. Some, even a majority, may be people with genuine anger at the situation, but where have they got those placards from? Clearly someone is coordinating the response.

An example: on Friday Theresa May was meeting some victims of the fire (yes, she did actually did this, even if she did do it in her usual media-shy, emotionally stilted way; media reports that she didn't are fake news). A Guardian journalist, erstwhile Corbyn-supporter and regular talking-head on the BBC and Sky* posted on social media the exact address and postcode of Theresa May and encouraged people to gather outside the location (a church as it happens) and call for her resignation:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/ ... 1734351873 (also posted on Facebook with the full address, since deleted).

This was done on the anniversary of the politically-motivated murder of MP Jo Cox. Even with the "peaceful" caveat this was highly irresponsible at best, incitement to riot at worst.

So, what happened? The left-leaning press gleefully post videos of a protest outside St Clements Church as Theresa May "sneaks" out a side door to shouts of "coward" and calls for her resignation. What isn't mentioned is - as the post I've linked to shows - the whole thing was coordinated. Not only Owen Jones, but others on social media would have been organizing this "spontaneous" outpouring of anger and calls for her resignation. Despite Owen Jones' caveat of "peaceful", you can clearly see that it wasn't really that peaceful at all.

As I said: the question of whether all of these protests are genuine or whether some are "rent-a-mobs" is not outrageous by any means.







*Owen Jones if you've heard of him. Doesn't matter if you haven't.
Last edited by Theophilus on June 17th, 2017, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Theophilus » June 17th, 2017, 8:33 pm

Lyn wrote:Whenever any disaster happens it will become political, the government blamed by the opposition.


Yes, that's another interesting thing.

The UK recently suffered two deliberate terrorist attacks that resulted in the death of innocent people including children. What was the response of the "opposition" and their supporters: don't get angry, don't hate, stay united, carry on as normal.

Less than a month later, an accident claims innocent lives, including children, and what is the response of the same opposition and their supporters? Get angry! Blame the government! Don't carry on as normal! Bring down the government!

Labour could not have criticized those to blame for the terrorist attacks without alienating some of its own core vote (i.e. the Muslim vote): cue calls for less hate and carrying on.
Labour can easily blame "the rich", "the government" etc. for what was an accident and so do so with gleeful abandon. It's no accident that this debate has flared up in the Political forum. Much of the outrage is political confection irresponsibly stoked up and maintained by a party that hopes to force another election and gain power.
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Re: General election on the way!

Postby Sprocket » June 18th, 2017, 4:05 am

Yes, undoubtedly there were some Socialist Worker people taking advantage of it, because there always are, but I'm sure most of them were genuine residents - not necessarily of Grenfell Tower, but of the estate it was part of.
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