Referendum in Catalonia

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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sarniajoy » October 3rd, 2017, 11:03 am

There are much greater problems facing the world than whether or not Catalonia should be independent.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 3rd, 2017, 11:08 am

On Steve's post:
The referendum was illegal under the terms of the Spanish constitution of 1977 and, as Catalonia is still a region within the Spanish state, the ban was legally binding. That is the basic objective consideration - full stop.

On Pondero's post:
I don't see all this leading to another civil war, not least as the Catalan opposition parties to Madrid's control don't have anything like an army to fight the armed forces of the Spanish central government, as the forces of the Spanish Republic had against the Nationalist forces in 1936. Which isn't to say that there won't be social conflict in the days ahead. There's a general strike here in Barcelona and the rest of Catalonia today in protest at Sunday's police violence with almost all public services, shops, transport, etc. closed or ground to a halt.

Anyway, I'll be happy to answer any further questions or points about this crisis, especially any of the probably ignorant, half-informed comments on the social media (pace Steve's reference to conflicting Facebook opinions.) I'm here - after forty years! - and I've got the facts on the ground.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Val » October 3rd, 2017, 6:57 pm

It appears to me that we Irish and the Catalans are very much alike in our struggle with a greater power, Britain suppressed our culture and language just like Catalan, Henry VIII for us, and finally Queen Isabella I and King Ferdinand II for the Catalans, I know little about its history but all suppressed peoples eventually rise up and fight back, but what the Spanish government did to those innocent people voting on their future was monstrous, whoever ordered it should be made to face the consequences.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 3rd, 2017, 7:45 pm

Although the police action was certainly brutal and over the top, the fact remains that the referendum was illegal under the present Spanish constitution and respecting democratic principles means respecting an established constitution until it is changed democratically. There is nothing repressive about the 1977 Spanish constitution which was drawn up by all the newly liberated democratic organisms, including the communist and socialist parties, as well as the Catalan ones, after the end of the Franco dictatorship. Catalonia already has far more autonomy and control over its own affairs than could ever be remotely dreamed of by truly oppressed communities, such as the Kurds.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sarniajoy » October 4th, 2017, 9:51 am

GregB wrote:Although the police action was certainly brutal and over the top, the fact remains that the referendum was illegal under the present Spanish constitution and respecting democratic principles means respecting an established constitution until it is changed democratically. There is nothing repressive about the 1977 Spanish constitution which was drawn up by all the newly liberated democratic organisms, including the communist and socialist parties, as well as the Catalan ones, after the end of the Franco dictatorship. Catalonia already has far more autonomy and control over its own affairs than could ever be remotely dreamed of by truly oppressed communities, such as the Kurds.



The people who come out of this with the worst reputation are the Spanish Government and the police, imo.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sprocket » October 4th, 2017, 10:23 am

Sarniajoy wrote:There are much greater problems facing the world than whether or not Catalonia should be independent.

What the hell has that got to do with anything? This thread is about the Catalan referendum. If you want to discuss something else, start another thread!
Brendan Behan once went on a lecture tour of Canada. On his arrival, a reporter asked him why he'd come to Canada. Behan replied "I saw an advert that said 'Drink Canada Dry', and I thought 'I'll try anything once!'"
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sarniajoy » October 4th, 2017, 10:38 am

Sprocket wrote:
Sarniajoy wrote:There are much greater problems facing the world than whether or not Catalonia should be independent.

What the hell has that got to do with anything? This thread is about the Catalan referendum. If you want to discuss something else, start another thread!


Temper, Temper! :lol:
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sprocket » October 4th, 2017, 12:47 pm

O tempora, o mores...
Brendan Behan once went on a lecture tour of Canada. On his arrival, a reporter asked him why he'd come to Canada. Behan replied "I saw an advert that said 'Drink Canada Dry', and I thought 'I'll try anything once!'"
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 4th, 2017, 1:48 pm

Sarniajoy wrote:
GregB wrote:Although the police action was certainly brutal and over the top, the fact remains that the referendum was illegal under the present Spanish constitution and respecting democratic principles means respecting an established constitution until it is changed democratically. There is nothing repressive about the 1977 Spanish constitution which was drawn up by all the newly liberated democratic organisms, including the communist and socialist parties, as well as the Catalan ones, after the end of the Franco dictatorship. Catalonia already has far more autonomy and control over its own affairs than could ever be remotely dreamed of by truly oppressed communities, such as the Kurds.



The people who come out of this with the worst reputation are the Spanish Government and the police, imo.

Yes, that's already been established, so you're hardly blaze trailing with such an obvious, banal comment (your forté, admittedly) and I doubt whether you've really carefully considered the full import of my longer post. You see, as a historian (and long-time resident of Spain) I was simply trying to fill in some objective historical background to the current constitutional crisis (that's known as an alliteration, by the way; don't worry - it's in the dictionary. ;) )

By the way, you keep putting imo (in my opinion) after most of your posts. I'd say it's a bit difficult to call such one-liner banalities, which make tweets look like philosophical essays, 'opinions'.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Sarniajoy » October 4th, 2017, 2:39 pm

GregB wrote:
Sarniajoy wrote:
GregB wrote:Although the police action was certainly brutal and over the top, the fact remains that the referendum was illegal under the present Spanish constitution and respecting democratic principles means respecting an established constitution until it is changed democratically. There is nothing repressive about the 1977 Spanish constitution which was drawn up by all the newly liberated democratic organisms, including the communist and socialist parties, as well as the Catalan ones, after the end of the Franco dictatorship. Catalonia already has far more autonomy and control over its own affairs than could ever be remotely dreamed of by truly oppressed communities, such as the Kurds.



The people who come out of this with the worst reputation are the Spanish Government and the police, imo.

Yes, that's already been established, so you're hardly blaze trailing with such an obvious, banal comment (your forté, admittedly) and I doubt whether you've really carefully considered the full import of my longer post. You see, as a historian (and long-time resident of Spain) I was simply trying to fill in some objective historical background to the current constitutional crisis (that's known as an alliteration, by the way; don't worry - it's in the dictionary. ;) )

By the way, you keep putting imo (in my opinion) after most of your posts. I'd say it's a bit difficult to call such one-liner banalities, which make tweets look like philosophical essays, 'opinions'.


YAWN
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