Referendum in Catalonia

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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Pondero » October 21st, 2017, 9:56 pm

Thanks very much for your reply Greg.I look forward to reading your further comments on this subject.
Goodnight , it must be after midnight in Barcelona
We live at a time ...characterized by a subliminal relativism that penetrates every area of life. Sometimes this relativism becomes aggressive, when it opposes those who say that they know where the truth or meaning of life is to be found. Benedict XV1.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Pondero » October 22nd, 2017, 1:03 pm

In Canada we managed to keep Quebec Province part of Canada, and they now have a budget surplus, although they used to be a basket case receiving tax money (equalization payments) from the surplus monies of rich Alberta oil fields and prosperous manufacturing of Ontario. But, Alberta is in the doldrums and we in Ontario are in deep dodo, debt, thanks to mismanagement by the Provincial Liberals.They in Quebec are doing well standing on their own two feet.
I sincerely hope that Catalonia remains as part of Spain without civil unrest - or worse.
We live at a time ...characterized by a subliminal relativism that penetrates every area of life. Sometimes this relativism becomes aggressive, when it opposes those who say that they know where the truth or meaning of life is to be found. Benedict XV1.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 22nd, 2017, 1:54 pm

Thanks for that relevant information about Canada and Quebec, Pondero, (and my sympathies as ever for your having Justin Trudeau as prime minister, although he can never outdo his ludicrous father, Pierre, in fatuousness.)

The basic fact here is that Catalonia is still a region/province within the Spanish state and the democratic post-Franco constitution of 1978, drawn up by all the legalised political parties, the communist party included, granted large degrees of autonomy for all the Spanish provinces and regions such as Catalonia. The Spanish constitution is effectively the law and those who violate it, whatever their supposed justification, are guilty of breaking the law. The illegal referendum of October 1st in Catalonia and subsequent implicit declaration of independence inevitably have resulted in the invocation by the Spanish government of Article 155 of the Constitution which revokes the autonomy of those regional assemblies which seek to go beyond what the Constitution permits in its clear terms of its adherence to the Spanish state and the assumption of the central government's responsibilities. Madrid will now take over the government of Catalonia and if there is fierce opposition, there may be serious social conflict.

There has been a lot of emotional nonsense on the social media these days (including a pathetic tearful video full of false information by some bad actress, 'Help Catalonia') but facts are facts. Hundreds of companies and banks are pulling out of Catalonia in the light of this absurd separatist crusade and there is absolutely no support internationally, the EU included. Don't fall for the lies. Catalonia has the greatest degree of self-government in all of Europe. If these fanatics want to sacrifice that for a hopeless cause, let them take the consequences.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby gone » October 27th, 2017, 1:35 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

The Catalans have just declared independence.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 27th, 2017, 1:52 pm

It's not going to happen. Madrid is already applying Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution suspending Catalan autonomy in the case of the violation of the Constitution which this empty vote implies. Hundreds of companies and banks have already left Catalonia in the light of the independence movement. Moreover, there is no international support whatsoever for Catalan independence (the EU has rejected it totally), so a hypothetical Catalan Republic would be totally isolated and facing ruin. And large swathes of the population of Catalonia are against independence, many of them with mixed Spanish/Catalan families who feel comfortable being Catalans and Spanish at the same time (like my wife whose father was Catalan and whose mother was Andalusian.)

Anyway, the days ahead are crucial and, as someone who has lived here for forty years, I'll be happy to answer any questions people here may have.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby gone » October 27th, 2017, 2:05 pm

One hopes there is no more violence, the Spanish police showed themselves up in a very bad light when the referendum took place. :evil:
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby Pondero » October 27th, 2017, 9:47 pm

A referendum should be the vote of every resident, citizen, member of Catalonia, above the age of 18.Independence from Spain is too important to be left in the hands of their Parliamentarians, who , if they are anything like our Members of the Provincial Parliaments differ from the views of the voting public they are supposed to represent. I doubt, if when the Catalanian Parliamentarians were elected , independence was part of their platform.
Even if they hinted at independence in the future in some vague way, a mail in ballot is the only fair, democratic way of recording the expression of the voter.

Even then you know they are breaking the law of Spain, and the views of all Spaniards should in some way be brought into this debate, before declaring independence. But, it is already done , the government of Catalonia has already declared independence - illegally.
This act of independence should be declared null and void by Spain, and discussions should begin immediately between both sides. If this cannot be done, then martial law should be declared by Spain in Catalonia. :(
We live at a time ...characterized by a subliminal relativism that penetrates every area of life. Sometimes this relativism becomes aggressive, when it opposes those who say that they know where the truth or meaning of life is to be found. Benedict XV1.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 28th, 2017, 8:03 am

Post moved forward.
Last edited by GregB on October 28th, 2017, 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby gone » October 28th, 2017, 8:05 am

There is talk of a civil war, one hopes it doesn't come to that.
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Re: Referendum in Catalonia

Postby GregB » October 28th, 2017, 8:29 am

(Responding to Pondero.)

Good post, Pondero! Everything you say is quite correct.

The declaration of independence in the Catalan parliament yesterday has already been declared null and void by the Spanish government during an evening appearance before the press by the Spanish PM, Mariano Rajoy. He also invoked article 155 of the Spanish constitution which requires the central government to withdraw autonomous powers from any region which declares independence. This has now been set in motion with the removal from office of the Catalan regional president, Puigdemont, and all his ministers and many other officials as well. The Catalan regional parliament has been dissolved and new elections will be held on December 21st.

All of this is within the terms of the democratic Spanish constitution of 1978 following the demise of the Franco regime, which was drawn up by all the newly legalised political parties, including the socialist and communist parties. All the regions of Spain were granted varying degrees of autonomy and Catalonia had the highest, with its own parliament, president, powers over most areas of life, including an autonomous police force, and use of the Catalan language (prohibited under Franco.) The illegal declaration of independence has undermined all of this and the declared aim of the central government now is to restore that autonomy within the framework of the constitution. The declaration of independence is not supported by the majority of Spaniards nor over half the population of Catalonia and no international support whatsoever (I'm sure much of this has come across on the news media in the UK and elsewhere.)

There is no likelihood of civil war for the simple reason that Catalonia has no armed forces of its own and there are no armed militias among the local population as there were in 1936 (mostly anarchists and communists.) The worst case scenario is extensive civil disobedience or sporadic violence from the more extreme radical separatist elements. That would just worsen an increasingly difficult economic situation (1700 companies and banks have already moved their HQ's out of Catalonia.)

Glad to provide any more information...
"We have more knowledge than those who came before us not because of our greater intelligence and understanding, but because we are dwarves sitting on the shoulders of giants who preceded us."
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