Canada and World Politics

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Set the world to rights?

Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Lyn » October 25th, 2018, 10:33 am

There would be a better turn out second time around, people are more informed. Many didn't realise what Brexit would involve and now they do. Of course, the end result may be the same but at least there'd be some acceptance.

Doesn't look as though it's going to happen though.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm

Any thoughts on my criticism of simple majority referendums using the EU referendum as an example, which I reproduce below? (I dislike the ridiculous buzz word 'Brexit'.)

"In my view, a majority of slightly over 50% of the total vote (ie. only just over half of those who voted) cannot be said to represent the will of the entire British people, not when just under half voted against leaving the EU (not to mention the near 30% who didn't vote.) There should be a much higher figure (say 75%) to carry the proposal. which would represent a much greater proportion of the population (or at least of those who vote.) With anything less, the results of the referendum should be annulled and the question decided in parliamentary elections."
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Lyn » October 25th, 2018, 2:24 pm

Not really.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 25th, 2018, 3:12 pm

Oh, I see. But don't you think it's unreasonable that a proposition should be carried on the strength of 51 or 52%, which is only just over half of those who voted? Hard luck on the other half who disagree? Sorry, but in my view that is not democratic. What's wrong with setting the bar much higher (eg. 75%) which would be much more of a real majority. OK, if you don't agree with that, can I ask you why not? Surely you have some thoughts about it.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Lyn » October 25th, 2018, 6:14 pm

I do think percentage should be higher to carry the motion but feel a bit weary about it all. It's possible Remain would win next time around but with the same sort of low percentage with which the exits won last time.

I'm gloomy today, glass half empty.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » October 25th, 2018, 9:50 pm

My view is that first passed the post wins , even if it by only 30% or less of eligible voters.
We don't have a 50% + 1 in the federal government, and Trudeau's party won by much less than that. I don't like Trudeau or the Liberals, but that is life: he is lawfully in power- until the 2019 election takes place, then we will see!
I do think that there should be special rules for those like Greg who live in Spain as they made their lives there according to the old rules . But, that should not apply to newcomers trying to live in Spain,( or France or elsewhere.).Greg should be protected under law after Brexit.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Sprocket » October 25th, 2018, 9:57 pm

Greg - yes, the threshold should be more than a simple majority of those who vote, for something as momentous as leaving the EU. I favour a majority of the entire electorate, rather than a super-majority, such as 66%, of the voters, since tha latter is somewhat arbitrary, but at any rate it should be more than a simple majority of voters.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » October 26th, 2018, 9:48 am

Sprocket wrote:Greg - yes, the threshold should be more than a simple majority of those who vote, for something as momentous as leaving the EU. I favour a majority of the entire electorate, rather than a super-majority, such as 66%, of the voters, since tha latter is somewhat arbitrary, but at any rate it should be more than a simple majority of voters.


To do so is unfair to the majority who wish to leave the EU. It is undemocratic and ignores the wishes of most of the people.
Such a state of things can lead (in some countries) to a revolution.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 26th, 2018, 10:12 am

Pondero, if you backtrack onto the figures I quoted, only just over 51% voted to leave (against 49% remain.) That means only a little more than half of those who voted (not "most of the people" as you put it) opted for leaving, which in my view is undemocratic as it leaves almost an equal number of 'remainers' on the outside. How can 51% represent the voice of all of the people? That's why, in my view, raising the threshold to a much higher figure, like 75% would constitute a real majority (with 25% or less a real minority.)

My problem with Steve's post is how you gauge the wishes of the entire electorate, other than by a referendum or by elections (opinion polls should hardly be used to determine government policy), when not everyone will vote anyway. As for a higher figure in a referendum being arbitrary, surely anything over 70% constitutes an overwhelming majority (compare 70% with 30%:)
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » October 26th, 2018, 2:45 pm

Most of the people is anything from 51% to 100% .
In the Brexit problem you will never get 100% for or against, no matter what you do.
As I implied in my previous post it is dangerous to over rule the will of the people, even if only 51% voted for something.
My example is the USA. Where roughly 50% are supporting Trump and 50% are opposing him. The United States is at war with itself today, in words and hate if not in weapons.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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