Canada and World Politics

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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 26th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Most of the people is anything from 51% to 100% .

In a technical, mathematical sense perhaps (and I realise you have the mind of an accountant!) but it is absurd to assert that 50% + 1%, only a very little over half, constitutes 'most of the people'. (You might as well say that after, say, 50 years old you are ageing, so a 51-year-old person is old. It's all relative.) Moreover, what of the 49% who lose the referendum? Are they not 'the people', despite constituting almost half of the voters?
In the Brexit problem you will never get 100% for or against, no matter what you do.

Of course you won't, but what I have been trying to suggest (though you don't appear to have grappled with the point) is that a high figure such as 75 or 80%, leaving a clear minority of 20 or 25%, is a much more resounding 'will of the people' (over 3/4 of the voters) than little more than half, or thereabouts.
As I implied in my previous post it is dangerous to over rule the will of the people, even if only 51% voted for something.

There's really no such thing as an overall 'will of the people', in fact. A large but not overwhelming number (more than 51%!) on one issue does not imply the same unity over other issues and certainly doesn't imply some kind of mass social movement, especially in our fragmented society where the social networks are the only real cohering elements.
My example is the USA. Where roughly 50% are supporting Trump and 50% are opposing him. The United States is at war with itself today, in words and hate if not in weapons.

If those figures were 51% and 49% respectively, by your criteria that would mean that Trump supporters represented 'the will of the people'. (What's 50% opposing 50% - the bifurcated will of the people?) In any event, there are various factors behind the confrontational politics in the USA at present.

Oh, and as for weapons, I'd say the packet bombs being sent to various Democrat politicians and supporters are certainly that
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » October 26th, 2018, 4:32 pm

Most of the people is anything from 51% to 100% .

"In a technical, mathematical sense perhaps (and I realise you have the mind of an accountant!) but it is absurd to assert that 50% + 1%, only a very little over half, constitutes 'most of the people'. (You might as well say that after, say, 50 years old you are ageing, so a 51-year-old person is old. It's all relative.) Moreover, what of the 49% who lose the referendum? Are they not 'the people', despite constituting almost half of the voters? "

The dictionary definition of "Most" backs me up . I am not going to argue on this point.
On other points.Well, if a referendum is is held to decide whether a referendum on Brexit should be held and >50% say yes , then another referendum should be held before the Brexit referendum to decide , before it, what percentage should constitute a victory or loss. :grin:
If the result of the first referendum ( mentioned here ) is < 50% , then you should leave the EU because that is what the majority , or most, or the greater than of two conflicting ideas has determined.That has already been determined in 2016.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 26th, 2018, 5:09 pm

The dictionary definition of "Most" backs me up . I am not going to argue on this point.

Whether you argue on this point or not, Pondero, I'll say it for the last time that 51% is not "most of the people", however the dictionary defines 'most'. It's not a question of broad, literal, inflexible definitions; it's a question of logic and common sense and to claim that 51% is 'most of the people' is quite simply nonsense.

As for my other points, it's a pity about your lack of any response to them, other than the one about another Brexit referendum:
Well, if a referendum is is held to decide whether a referendum on Brexit should held and >50% say yes , then another referendum should be held before the Brexit referendum to decide , before it what percentage should constitute a victory or loss. :grin:
If the result of the first referendum is < 50% , then you should leave the EU because that is what the majority , or most, or the greater than of two conflicting ideas has determined.

If you are proposing a referendum to decide what percentage should constitute a victory or a loss in a subsequent referendum, that would be impossible due to one of the main drawbacks of referendums: the unique response is either 'Yes' or 'No' (and you aren't given a list of different choices.)

You probably missed my update in my previous post as you logged in at the same time. It concerned your comment: "The United States is at war with itself today, in words and hate if not in weapons." I responded:"Oh, and as for weapons, I'd say the packet bombs being sent to various Democrat politicians and supporters are certainly that."
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » October 26th, 2018, 5:19 pm

I am getting fed up of this silly argument Greg. Logic and common sense does dictate that 51% is Most of the people , because the other 49% is a Minority of the people.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby GregB » October 26th, 2018, 5:25 pm

It's not a silly argument (better, 'discussion') at all. I've tried to make some serious, informed, cogent points, despite most of them falling on stony ground. As for your second observation, to call 49% 'a minority' (other than in an unimaginative, literal-minded way) is ridiculous when it is just short of half. I'll leave it there...

Well, not quite. In an earlier post you said:
"I do think that there should be special rules for those like Greg who live in Spain as they made their lives there according to the old rules. But, that should not apply to newcomers trying to live in Spain,( or France or elsewhere.).Greg should be protected under law after Brexit."
Before Spain joined the EU in 1986, I already had residence and work permit rights as I was married to a Spanish citizen (and still am, of course - same one) after moving here in 1978. I paid the equivalent of national insurance contributions over my working career here until I retired in 2012 and now have a full pension. When the UK leaves the EU, I doubt whether things will change in my case. I would still be registered as a legitimate resident with a Spanish pension. although if it came to the crunch for some bureaucratic reason, I could take out Spanish nationality. However, I don't think it will come to that.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Theophilus » October 27th, 2018, 9:51 am

What other countries do with referendums is to ensure a minimum threshold for turnout to ensure the result doesn't just represent a tiny, but vocal, minority. After all, 75% of votes could be cast for one option in a referendum, but if only 20% of the electorate bothered to vote it can hardly be called representative. So, if the turnout is too low, the result of the referendum is not implemented. If the turnout is above the threshold, then the referendum result is valid, even if it is a simple majority of 51-49.

The UK's EU referendum didn't have a minimum threshold for turnout, yet if it had the result would still have been valid. The 17+ million who voted to leave the EU represents the largest mandate for any policy or political party ever in the history of British politics. The turnout was 70+ %... if this is not a high-enough turnout for a referendum to be enacted then all General Elections held in the 21st century could be inferred as invalid.

Those campaigning for the referendum result to be overturned have a right for their voice to be heard; however, to suggest they represent the 49% who voted to remain in the EU is disingenuous. The 16 or so million people who voted to remain in the EU will have preferred the vote to have gone the other way, but 2 years down the line, with Article 50 already invoked and with a considerable amount of time given to the preparation for Brexit (though clearly not enough from our useless government), the idea that 15 million people want the result to be overturned is demonstrable nonsense.

After all the promises/threats by Cameron's government (and Remain supporters) that the result of this referendum was final and a "once in a lifetime" vote, to offer another referendum would not lead to a higher turnout but a much lower one; not only that but it would surely lead to a lower turnout in subsequent elections too as the electorate (both Leave and Remain supporters) would reasonably conclude that it doesn't matter how people vote, MPs and Ministers will just do what they want.
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » December 13th, 2018, 11:20 am

Turning to China this morning. duplicated
Last edited by Pondero on December 13th, 2018, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » December 13th, 2018, 11:20 am

Turning to China this morning. triplicated .
Last edited by Pondero on December 13th, 2018, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Pondero » December 13th, 2018, 11:20 am

Turning to China this morning. China has arrested a second Canadian person on unknown charges. The first person used to be a political officer , a Canadian diplomat. It all started about a week ago when we arrested the financial head of a Chinese cell phone company .We did so at the request of the Americans who want the head of Huawei extradited. Canada tried her and gave her bail .She lives now in B.C. under guard, but free to move about Vancouver where she owns two houses .
Meanwhile no action is taken against the Americans by China.The Americans are saying that this woman traded with Iran using a dummy company which is against American law.


My own view is to stop trading with China and cut off all diplomatic relations.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: Canada and World Politics

Postby Lyn » December 13th, 2018, 1:26 pm

So good you said it thrice, Pondy :-) !

Got the message.

You're a well travelled man, ever fancied going to China? I know I won't go but love programmes about it, it is so beautiful and the work that is being done breeding pandas is amazing. The Panda place is a popular tourist destination.

None of this has owt to do with politics but never mind.

Hope you're having a good day. x
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