What is required of a person to be a Christian

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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 2:05 pm

We all make mistakes occasionally Greg.

Nice understatement, Pondero!
The main difference between us on this subject is that you expect divine providence via the Holy Spirit to make sure that bad Pope's don't get elected or chosen in the past, and obviously a few did so.

Sorry but that's just wriggling out of the plain facts. Either God, through the Holy Spirit, influences the choice of his successive 'vicars' and successors of Saint Peter on earth or he doesn't. A single exception (and there are many) destroys the rule, as well as the concept of unbroken apostolic succession.
Jesus only guarantied that the gates of Hell will not prevail it (the church). That, to me means that Catholic teaching on divine issues will continue without change until the end of the world.

You mean like Pius IX's dogma of the Immaculate Conception conceived (no pun intended) in 1854, only sixteen centuries late in the formation (ie. Catholics in that interim had a wrong idea of the virgin Mary's true status.) Not to mention the late dogma of papal infallibility (1871); presumably all ex cathedra papal pronouncements in the previous eighteen centuries lacked that divine seal of approval. Still, better late than never.

Getting back to your original point (about mistakes), I know you disapprove of the present pope as a closet liberal (I'm not keen on him myself), but that surely means that you must accept, again, that God doesn't always have control over the choice of his (supposed) vicars of Christ.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Sprocket » April 23rd, 2017, 3:00 pm

I'm not in the habit of defending Catholicism, but I suppose you could argue that the wicked popes were sent by God to punish a back-slidden church. However, if you argue that way, the thesis that all popes are chosen by the Holy Spirit becomes unfalsifiable, and therefore useless.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 3:21 pm

You could argue that, although it doesn't really make sense as surely God would not have spitefully and gleefully sent evil popes to correct a backsliding church, which would have made it still worse, but rather good popes to put it back on course. Such would have prevented the Reformation.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 6:00 pm

The main difference between us on this subject is that you expect divine providence via the Holy Spirit to make sure that bad Pope's don't get elected or chosen in the past, and obviously a few did so.

Sorry but that's just wriggling out of the plain facts. Either God, through the Holy Spirit, influences the choice of his successive 'vicars' and successors of Saint Peter on earth or he doesn't. A single exception (and there are many) destroys the rule, as well as the concept of unbroken apostolic succession.


No, the Holy Spirit is not supposed to guarantee a good Pope will be chosen, individually, but in order for the Church to remain a Holy apostolic Church as it says in the Apostles Creed, the vast majority of Pope's must be good. And such is the case .I can't remember how many Pope's we have had so far but it must be in the region of 265 and there were very few bad ones out of that group.
Apostolic succession is not destroyed by having the occasional bad one - I don't follow your reasoning here Greg!
The only important thing is that the Church teaching must remain unchanged , non -contradictory throughout the ages.It is the teaching that counts , not the man in charge.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 6:38 pm

Well, we're clearly at cross purposes here Pondero so, as they say, let's agree to differ.

Oh, and as a fussy grammarian, sorry to be pedantic but the plural of pope - ie. popes - does not have an apostrophe before the 's'. (Nor should it have a capital 'P' unless it precedes the actual name of one.)
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 6:52 pm

GregB wrote:Well, we're clearly at cross purposes here Pondero so, as they say, let's agree to differ.

Oh, and as a fussy grammarian, sorry to be pedantic but the plural of pope - ie. popes - does not have an apostrophe before the 's'. (Nor should it have a capital 'P' unless it precedes the actual name of one.)


I don't use a computer to reply to your comments as a rule, I use a small hand held Android tablet and it often uses an apostrophe after a word instead of the p!ural when such is appropriate. I will have to be more careful in future or better still use the laptop which is in an "office" upstairs.
I agree with your other comment about the use of capital letters before proper names.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 6:58 pm

:thumbsup:
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