What is required of a person to be a Christian

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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 2:05 pm

We all make mistakes occasionally Greg.

Nice understatement, Pondero!
The main difference between us on this subject is that you expect divine providence via the Holy Spirit to make sure that bad Pope's don't get elected or chosen in the past, and obviously a few did so.

Sorry but that's just wriggling out of the plain facts. Either God, through the Holy Spirit, influences the choice of his successive 'vicars' and successors of Saint Peter on earth or he doesn't. A single exception (and there are many) destroys the rule, as well as the concept of unbroken apostolic succession.
Jesus only guarantied that the gates of Hell will not prevail it (the church). That, to me means that Catholic teaching on divine issues will continue without change until the end of the world.

You mean like Pius IX's dogma of the Immaculate Conception conceived (no pun intended) in 1854, only sixteen centuries late in the formation (ie. Catholics in that interim had a wrong idea of the virgin Mary's true status.) Not to mention the late dogma of papal infallibility (1871); presumably all ex cathedra papal pronouncements in the previous eighteen centuries lacked that divine seal of approval. Still, better late than never.

Getting back to your original point (about mistakes), I know you disapprove of the present pope as a closet liberal (I'm not keen on him myself), but that surely means that you must accept, again, that God doesn't always have control over the choice of his (supposed) vicars of Christ.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Sprocket » April 23rd, 2017, 3:00 pm

I'm not in the habit of defending Catholicism, but I suppose you could argue that the wicked popes were sent by God to punish a back-slidden church. However, if you argue that way, the thesis that all popes are chosen by the Holy Spirit becomes unfalsifiable, and therefore useless.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 3:21 pm

You could argue that, although it doesn't really make sense as surely God would not have spitefully and gleefully sent evil popes to correct a backsliding church, which would have made it still worse, but rather good popes to put it back on course. Such would have prevented the Reformation.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 6:00 pm

The main difference between us on this subject is that you expect divine providence via the Holy Spirit to make sure that bad Pope's don't get elected or chosen in the past, and obviously a few did so.

Sorry but that's just wriggling out of the plain facts. Either God, through the Holy Spirit, influences the choice of his successive 'vicars' and successors of Saint Peter on earth or he doesn't. A single exception (and there are many) destroys the rule, as well as the concept of unbroken apostolic succession.


No, the Holy Spirit is not supposed to guarantee a good Pope will be chosen, individually, but in order for the Church to remain a Holy apostolic Church as it says in the Apostles Creed, the vast majority of Pope's must be good. And such is the case .I can't remember how many Pope's we have had so far but it must be in the region of 265 and there were very few bad ones out of that group.
Apostolic succession is not destroyed by having the occasional bad one - I don't follow your reasoning here Greg!
The only important thing is that the Church teaching must remain unchanged , non -contradictory throughout the ages.It is the teaching that counts , not the man in charge.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 6:38 pm

Well, we're clearly at cross purposes here Pondero so, as they say, let's agree to differ.

Oh, and as a fussy grammarian, sorry to be pedantic but the plural of pope - ie. popes - does not have an apostrophe before the 's'. (Nor should it have a capital 'P' unless it precedes the actual name of one.)
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 6:52 pm

GregB wrote:Well, we're clearly at cross purposes here Pondero so, as they say, let's agree to differ.

Oh, and as a fussy grammarian, sorry to be pedantic but the plural of pope - ie. popes - does not have an apostrophe before the 's'. (Nor should it have a capital 'P' unless it precedes the actual name of one.)


I don't use a computer to reply to your comments as a rule, I use a small hand held Android tablet and it often uses an apostrophe after a word instead of the p!ural when such is appropriate. I will have to be more careful in future or better still use the laptop which is in an "office" upstairs.
I agree with your other comment about the use of capital letters before proper names.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 6:58 pm

:thumbsup:
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » July 11th, 2018, 1:19 pm

[*]Obviously the UK NHS makes it Impossible to be Christian doctor in the UK today!

UNITED KINGDOM, July 10, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – A doctor who has worked for 26 years with the UK’s National Health Service (NHS) has been “sacked” for refusing to use transgendered patients’ incorrect, “preferred” pronouns.

The treatment of the 55-year-old father of four who believes that sex is biological and not a matter of personal preference raises questions about the chilling effect that pro-LGBT policies of government agencies have on freedom of speech, especially when it comes to Christians.

Multiple reports from UK media indicate that Dr. David Mackereth was “deemed to be ‘unfit to work’ after he said he would refuse to identify patients by their preferred gender.”

Mackereth had sought a new position within NHS as a disability assessor for the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP). While training for his new job, Mackereth came under scrutiny for his reluctance to use patient’s preferred pronouns in written reports.

The DWP said in an email that his refusal to do so “could be considered harassment as defined by the 2010 Equality Act.”

The Equality Act identifies those undergo or who propose to undergo gender reassignment are part of a protected class. Failure to use preferred pronouns is interpreted as unlawful discrimination.

Under ferocious attack
Dr. Mackereth, who is a Christian, worries about what the DWP’s action implies about freedom of speech – and thought – in the UK.

“I’m not attacking the transgender movement. But, I’m defending my right to freedom of speech, and freedom of belief,” said Mackereth, according to the UK Telegraph. “I don’t believe I should be compelled to use a specific pronoun. I am not setting out to upset anyone. But, if upsetting someone can lead to doctors being sacked then, as a society we have to examine where we are going.”

“I said that I had a problem with this. I believe that gender is defined by biology and genetics and that as a Christian the Bible teaches us that God made humans male or female. I could have kept my mouth shut but it was the right time to raise it,” he said.

“By stating what has been believed by mankind for centuries – namely that gender and sex are determined at birth – you can come under ferocious attack,” he continued. “If we are no longer allowed to say that you believe sex and gender are the same and are determined at birth, everyone who holds my views can be sacked on the spot under this Act. I’m not an isolated case.”
Last edited by Pondero on July 11th, 2018, 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Lyn » July 11th, 2018, 1:28 pm

Pondy: Pope's.
Pope's what? You're not a greengrocer.

Having worked in the NHS for many years I can say there are plenty of Christian doctors. They are not all hard liners at the expense of common sense and compassion.
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Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » July 11th, 2018, 1:49 pm

Lyn wrote:Pondy: Pope's.
Pope's what? You're not a greengrocer.

Having worked in the NHS for many years I can say there are plenty of Christian doctors. They are not all hard liners at the expense of common sense and compassion.

You call it compassion to believe in the nonsensical views of the LGBTQ2 community when such views are definitely anti-Christian? And worse ..you have encompassed anti Christian views in the 2010 Equality Act! !
Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing make you afraid.
All things are passing.
God alone never changes.
Patience gains all things.
If you have God you will want for nothing.
God alone suffices.

— St. Teresa, The bookmark of Teresa of Ávila, [28]
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12807
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

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