What is required of a person to be a Christian

For discussions about Christianity, from any point of view.
Forum rules
For discussions about Christianity, from any point of view. Christians and those of any other faith or of none are equally welcome, provided they treat others with respect at all times.

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Lyn » April 21st, 2017, 2:34 pm

Thank you for responding Pondero. I still don't think staying off work on Easter Monday (which most do anyway as it's a bank holiday), is what every good Christian should do, but sort of see where you are coming from.
Lyn
 
Posts: 48818
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:25 am

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 21st, 2017, 3:42 pm

This year Easter Monday is the Feast Day of Our Lady of Arrabida (Portugal). But in any case why was Easter Monday given to the workers at all if not because of it's connection with Easter and it's religious significance?That is why it was made a holiday.Pressure from trade unions in the old days had something to do with it too.

Well, in the first place, outside Portuguese Catholic circles (the country - mostly ignorant, superstitious peasants - that produced the delirious hallucinatory nonsense of Fatima from three virgins verging on hysterical puberty), I doubt whether anyone gives a toss about Our Lady of Arrabida, including most non-Portuguese Catholics.

In the second place, let's repeat the fact that Easter Monday has no religious significance. Christ was resurrected on the third day after the crucifixion (ie. Sunday in our calendar) and the following day has no religious import whatsoever. And a lot of the concessions to the working class were due to the fear of the Catholic authorities that they would slip away from the rigid, dominant, doctrinal control of the Catholic Church - hence the encyclical Rerum Novarum of that old pope with the rictus grin, Leo XIII, trying to make up for the truly reactionary, obscurantist, retrograde popes like his recent predecessors, Gregory XVI (who banned trains in the Papal States), Pius IX (who petulantly declared papal infallability after losing the Papal States in 1871), his ignorant anti-modernist successor, Pius X and the arrogant, fascistoid Pius XII.
"The wiles of dissembling fate afford us the illusion of freedom, yet in the end always lead us into the same trap."
- Jean Cocteau
User avatar
GregB
 
Posts: 15826
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:23 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Lyn » April 21st, 2017, 4:04 pm

I agree with you that Easter Monday has no religious significance, I think Pondy's point was that Easter in general appears to be a secular time, eggs and bunnies and all that, so why not celebrate Easter Monday?

My view is that Good Friday and Easter Day are religious feasts but only to Christians, can't expect the rest of the population to care about the religious aspect.

You said regarding the Fatima business (& I don't believe all that) : "... three virgins verging on hysterical puberty". :D Bring it on Greg, you are so revealing in your attitudes!

I am waiting for Pondero to bring up St Theresa of Avila, you'll have a field day!
Lyn
 
Posts: 48818
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:25 am

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 21st, 2017, 4:19 pm

Well, in the first place, outside Portuguese Catholic circles (the country - mostly ignorant, superstitious peasants - that produced the delirious hallucinatory nonsense of Fatima from three virgins verging on hysterical puberty), I doubt whether anyone gives a toss about Our Lady of Arrabida, including most non-Portuguese Catholics.

I
There were two girls and a boy and I don't think the oldest a girl was above 10 years of age, thus ruling out pre-puberty hysteria I Greg.And the sun did appear to twist and fall on the crowd as reported by many in the crowd and by an atheist newspaper.No doubt the sun still shone normally over Barcelona and London and Toronto at that time, but the crowd did witness a miracle.

In the second place, let's repeat the fact that Easter Monday has no religious significance. Christ was resurrected on the third day after the crucifixion (ie. Sunday in our calendar) and the following day has no religious import whatsoever. And a lot of the concessions to the working class were due to the fear of the Catholic authorities that they would slip away from the rigid, dominant, doctrinal control of the Catholic Church - hence the encyclical Rerum Novarum of that old pope with the rictus grin, Leo XIII, trying to make up for the truly reactionary, obscurantist, retrograde popes like his recent predecessors, Gregory XVI (who banned trains in the Papal States), Pius IX (who petulantly declared papal infallability after losing the Papal States in 1871), his ignorant anti-modernist successor, Pius X and the arrogant, fascistoid Pius XII.
:
The Easter season lasts 50 days . Pope Leo XIII wrote a few encyclicals , for example , on Human Liberty , The Christian Constitution of the State before writing about the condition of the working classes. (Rerum Novarum) . It was Communism or Socialism as the Pope called it (which Karl Marx espoused and which the Pope opposed) and the need to defend the right to own property and.have a living wage and join trade unions that inspired that encyclical.
The rest of your tirade against other Popes I will leave for another time to answer, if at all.
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Lyn » April 21st, 2017, 4:38 pm

The Easter season is something I understand but not working on Easter Monday, other than it being a bank holiday when most have a day off, I do not. There is no religious objection to work on that day therefore you saying, "..all good Christians should", with regard to not working then, is not accurate. One can be a very good Christian and go to work on Easter Monday. Indeed, it's quiet, hardly anyone around and one can clear up a lot of things that were piling up before Easter. All a matter of choice.
Lyn
 
Posts: 48818
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:25 am

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 21st, 2017, 4:43 pm

There were two girls and a boy and I don't think the oldest a girl was above 10 years of age, thus ruling out pre-puberty hysteria I Greg.And the sun did appear to twist and fall on the crowd as reported by many in the crowd and by an atheist newspaper.No doubt the sun still shone normally over Barcelona and London and Toronto at that time, but the crowd did witness a miracle.

So I got my basic facts wrong, but the fundamental fact remains that these three were impressionable, uneducated, gullible, peasant youngsters who mistook some curious phenomena in the sky for some kind of heavenly manifestation (funny how these things never happen with peoples and cultures not conditioned by Catholic lore; now that would be impressive.) As for the sun twisting in the sky and falling on the crowd in just one very limited location but not elsewhere in the wider world, as well as being a total violation of the laws of physics (I accept miracles can happen but not this kind of very peculiar case), it makes no sense in the wider perspective of God's purposes, fully revealed in the life and death of Christ and the once and for all lessons thereof for the ages and without additions (eg. Islam, the Mormons, the JW's, etc. etc.)
The rest of your tirade against other Popes I will leave for another time to answer, if at all.

Suit yourself. History speaks for itself, but that's another thread, as you suggest. Meanwhile, I have no problem with sincere Catholic believers before God only.
"The wiles of dissembling fate afford us the illusion of freedom, yet in the end always lead us into the same trap."
- Jean Cocteau
User avatar
GregB
 
Posts: 15826
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:23 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 21st, 2017, 7:05 pm

I will just remind you that at Fatima the miracle of the sun was seen by crowds of people ,not just peasants, but educated men too and members of the atheist media, so whatever one concludes, miracle or not, something happened as described.
Now, later on perhaps I will have time to answer your remarks Greg about the other Popes you mentioned, Pius IX and Pius X and Pius XII, there may have been others.
( It is a hard working day for me - unusual I assure you, but take my word for it I am still busy. I certainly don't mind responding to any questions .)
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 1:41 am

Benedict XVI did condemn slavery Greg and Pius X became a saint,and condemned Modernism .
As for Pope Pius XII, he did what he could to save Jews during the second world war.

EDIT.
Pius IX defined the dogma of the Immaculste Conception in 1854.

.None off them were bad Popes.
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby GregB » April 23rd, 2017, 7:33 am

I'd rather re-phrase that. They clearly weren't bad people, though aspects of their papacies can be criticised, even by Catholics (and banning trains, for example, hardly has anything to do with Christian doctrine, though a lot to do with being a reactionary ruler of a state.) If it's bad popes and bad people, though, we need go no further than, say, Benedict IX (who sold the papacy - twice), the immoral Borgia pope Alexander VI , the two corrupt Medici popes Leo X and Clement VII, as well as the warrior pope Julius II (who led troops into battle twice, hardly in the spirit of Christ's words "My kingdom is not of this world" or his general non-violence teachings), and others.

If the Holy Spirit is believed to be involved in the election of a pope, then these and other examples would seem to deny that. (As part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit would share their omniscience and would know in advance how a pope would turn out.) I'd say it also calls into question the doctrine of apostolic succession with such 'bad apples' in the line. Incidentally, in your response, you confused Gregory XVI with Benedict XVI (who is still alive, of course.)

On a lighter note, a personal anecdote. The priest who baptised me way back in 1947 (my mother was still a Catholic then before her subsequent conversion to Methodism) apparently asked her why she had chosen the name Gregory for me. She told him that it was for the papal name, above all Gregory I 'the Great', whom she greatly admired. When my father (who was a lifelong agnostic) was asked, he replied somewhat facetiously that his favourite actor was Gregory Peck. I wasn't told what the priest's reaction was...
"The wiles of dissembling fate afford us the illusion of freedom, yet in the end always lead us into the same trap."
- Jean Cocteau
User avatar
GregB
 
Posts: 15826
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:23 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: What is required of a person to be a Christian

Postby Pondero » April 23rd, 2017, 10:58 am

We all make mistakes occasionally Greg.
I remember going through a list of the handful of wicked Popes we have had over the last two thousand years Greg, and commenting on them.
The main difference between us on this subject is that you expect divine providence via the Holy Spirit to make sure that bad Pope's don't get elected or chosen in the past, and obviously a few did so.
That thought never occured to me. Why should it be so, I ask myself?
Jesus only guarantied that the gates of Hell will not prevail it (the church). That , to me means that Catholic teaching on divine issues will continue without change until the end of the world. There are God made rules and Man made rules in the Catholic Church and only the latter can change.
According to one study, the average adult has a shorter attention span (eight seconds) than a goldfish (nine seconds).
This is not surprising in today's wired , or wified world.
User avatar
Pondero
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: October 25th, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Etobicoke,Ontario, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to About Christianity

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest